Garrett:
Before we actually jump into like the meat of the interview, I think it’d be important for our audience to better understand who you are. Okay. Can, can you introduce yourself, Eddie?

Eddie:
I am a licensed professional counselor. I’m licensed in two states North Carolina, as in South Carolina, and I’m also a certified coach. And basically I certified in the area of problematic sexual addiction. I have a private practice with my wife Terry in Highland, North Carolina, where I work exclusively with men who are dealing with porn and sex addiction. Um, I’m also an author. I’ve written three books. I have two others that are in the work, um, work with, different organizations and writing for their blog. And I just have a core being able to help people through this, you know, very troubling and destructive disorder that they’re facing.

Garrett:
Right. And you mentioned that you work exclusively with men, but it, I think it’s safe to say, maybe I’m wrong, tell me if I’m wrong, that a lot of the things we will talk about today, they’re applicable to both men and women. Do you think that’s true?

Eddie:
Oh, absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, actually we’re seeing the numbers increase dramatically, among females who are now getting involved with pornography and actually is taking a toll in their life.

Garrett:
And then based on our last conversation, your wife works with those that are experiencing the betrayal trauma. Does she only work with people that have experienced betrayal trauma, or is she also focused in on helping women journey through their unhealthy habit or addiction with pornography consumption as well?

Eddie:
She’s more predominant with the betrayal, audience, but she has also started to work with women who have been portrayed it. In fact, very interesting because she’s taken the last of the book, I wrote about four years ago, going deeper how the inner child impacts your sexual addiction, which was written to men and she’d been using that with, female audience. But I have some really exciting news, and that is, we do have a book that’s coming out for women. It’s called Going Deeper How The Inner Child Impacts Your Love slash Porn Addiction for Women. So we’re hoping to have that book out in late summer or early fall because to your point, the problem is just manifesting itself and it need to be addressed. There aren’t enough resources out there for women who are dealing with the pornography issue.

Garrett:
As of right now, I’ve read two of your books, the two that you’ve already authored, and I’ve benefited from those. And so again, we’ll look for that book in the future. Do you have a release date for that?

Eddie:
That could probably be in the late, summer, early fall. There’s also another book that’s coming out, and that’s gonna probably come out in early, 2023. And that’s going deeper How the Inner Child Impacts Addiction. And I’m working with the director of, the London Center for Addiction Treatment. And that book covers all addictions. Okay. You know, so that’s another one that we’re really looking forward to.

Garrett:
Well, good work.

Eddie:
Thank you.

Garrett:
Last time we spoke, we talked about emotional maturity. We talked about how to cultivate a relationship rather than just walking through it. We talked about the inner child, but it’s been about two years since we spoke, which is kind of wild to think about that it’s been two years. Right. Doesn’t it seem like it was just, I mean, it seems like it was 10 years ago, but also it seems like it was like three months ago.

Eddie:
You are absolutely right. My doesn’t seem like it was that long ago at all.

Garrett:
Has much changed in your practice since we last spoke? Besides the new books,

Eddie:
Yeah. Not much has changed in the practice. It’s still booming, which, you know, is a, it’s a blessing. but yet it’s also bittersweet, you know, that we see how, how much this problem just continues to grow in math. And as you know that over the last 20, 25 years with the how easily people can, you know, excess pornography, it, the numbers just continue to rise dramatically. And, and I think, you know, I think we’re on the verge if we haven’t already hit it, of being an epidemic. And there just are not enough training clinician to be able to manage the problem. We need a lot more people out there to, to help.

Garrett:
There have been several states that have declared the pornography a public health concern. So I think that, there are many people around the world acknowledging that this is problematic and we’re doing our best to address it. you and your wife are definitely part of the solution, and we appreciate the work that you do. to begin, this is kind of a selfish question, Eddie. And the reason why I say that is because it’s based on my curiosity. The question that I have is, what is, can you explain the difference between addiction and compulsion?

Eddie:
Yes. absolutely. You know, a compulsive disorder is driven by anxiety. Okay, did I put it there? The, an individual takes action. Could they want to anxiety, um, compulsive disorders, they’re part of the equation when it comes to problematic sexual behavior and pornography. But a compulsion is strictly a psychological issue. That’s what it is. People are engaging in the behavior for one reason. They’re looking for relief. That’s what it is. Okay. Addiction, on the other hand, it’s a dependency on a certain substance, such pornography. Right. Addiction is not solely a psychological issue. It’s also driven by neurological, neurological changes that we have in the brain. So therefore, in the case of pornography, what we’re talking about, the increase of dopamine, okay? For, for as well as serotonin and neuro, nephrons, um, it’s all driven for one thing. And that is the try to be able to achieve pleasure. So here they’re trying to achieve pleasure. Those who have a compulsive disorder, they’re looking for relief. That’s what they’re looking for. Addiction. They’re looking for a sense of pleasure to come with it.

Garrett:
Good. And then the other question that’s more selfish is because I want to follow my own curiosity before we get into some of these other questions. it’s regarding the difference between the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system. Okay. And I think it’s also relevant to the conversation or to the interview because I’m wondering if people that gets that are emotionally immature, if they’re stuck in the sympathetic nervous system because of negative experiences that they’ve had, is that safe to say

Eddie:
That that is negative experiences and it’s the lack of nur of nurturing and, instruction that they should have gotten at a young age to help them regulate their emotional, their emotion. So therefore, the sympathetic nervous system would’ve if responsible for, as people understand the fight or flight mode, okay, so therefore I’m either going to be aggressive to get through this or I’m going to run away. And of course, there’s also the breeze aspect, but basically it, it’s the body respond to a perceived threat.
The parasympathetic nervous system if responsible for homeostasis, homeo, self-regulating process where we remain or we try to maintain emotional stability. Okay. So therefore what it’s doing is helping the body to relax and enter into what we call, rest and digest function. So hopefully the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in after that so that we can decrease the hormone production that’s going on that lowers our blood pressure and the other anxiety produce side effects. If it does not kick in, we will remain in this heightened state of anxiety, which is, again, not healthy.

Garrett:
Do you think it’s possible for mindfulness to occur in with when a person is in a state of fight or flight?

Eddie:
Yes, it is. If that person has been focusing on developing that mindfulness muscle. Okay. You can’t wait till you get into the trenches jareth to do, to try to be mindful at that moment. You have to be working at it, when you’re before you’re in those those times. So therefore, something like meditation is a wonderful practice to be able to teach you how to mentally and emotionally and physically calm yourself for when that anxiety provoking circumstance comes up. You can go and you can lean on that and be able to say, wait, wait, let me slow everything down if I’d like to say to everybody. But if you’re not practicing that, and then you’re gonna hope that you’d be mindful, probably not gonna happen.

Garrett:
Okay. So mindfulness is like a muscle, if we’re training it in healthy ways, it could be, it becomes stronger and and healthier.

Eddie:
Absolutely. You have to train it because again, being mindful, especially for people who are more emotionally undeveloped, it, that that’s not, it’s not natural for us. Okay. Because we are very scattered. We are like all over the place. we’re, we are very difficult to focus in on, you know, the things that are very important at times.

Garrett:
Do you notice that the men you work with are hesitant or reluctant to strengthen their mindfulness muscle?

Eddie:
Absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. Because part of, of, again, the exercise of doing that is being still is learning how to be quiet again, how to focus as the one thing. And I, I could tell you many stories of sitting across from men and saying, Hey, you know what we’re gonna do? We’re gonna take a few minutes, just a, just a couple minutes, and we’re just gonna be silent. We’re just gonna be still. And you watch the fidgeting, you walked them looking all around the room. They look at their wa they can’t wait for that two minute to end. So yes, that, that they struggle with. And even when you give them the assignment to say, okay, they want you to meditate just five minutes a day, here’s the music track that you can use. And you still find that maybe 40%, 30% of them do it on a, on a regular basis. They’re very, very good at doing it. The rest of ’em, they’re all hit and miss.

Garrett:
In those moments of nervousness, when they have those ticks, like those nervous ticks during the silence, what are, what emotions are behind that nervous tick or wh what emotions are behind that nervousness

Eddie:
There’s a lot, there’s a lot of fear. Fear. There’s a lot of fear of that’s there because again, it is, what do I do with this? I, I don’t know what to do with this silence. I don’t know what to do with this, um, moment of comfort that we’re having because I’m used to being in discomfort at that point. I go, go, go. Yeah. I’m constantly running to distract myself from a sense of feeling discomfort.

Garrett:
Do you ever use the, the feeling wheel?

Eddie:
If I didn’t use the feeling, if I did not use the feeling wheel, then a lot of bed would not be able to identify what they truly feel from an emotional standpoint. Yeah. So yes, it’s, it’s used very often. It’s a very productive tool. Tool. And I do find that many men actually appreciate that tool. They like it because they can actually see it. And it’s really interesting. I use one that has many, many different emotions on it. Because as you know, some are more simplistic and when they look at that, you could see at the moment, their eyes start to, and they say the their all of these emotion. Emotion. Yeah. All of these emotions are available to us. Yeah. And I say, I go, you may actually feel them, but not realize it.

Garrett:
Because when you mentioned fear that the nervousness, because caused by the silence could be, because of fear. I’m looking at the feel will right now, and I’m looking at different emotions like confusion and discouragement. confusion and discouragement are an extension, are extensions of fear. And so I’m wondering if that’s just one example where, a person who has never experienced silence or doesn’t experience silence enough, they might be confused by it. Oh. And, and feel discouraged because of that confusion.

Eddie:
Absolutely. Because again, I, we go back to my point earlier, it’s not natural. It’s not natural because they won. They’re never given the skillset to be able to do that when they were younger So therefore they just continue to try to navigate on their own, you know, and for many Eddie dealing with any type of discomfort is not gonna be well received. So therefore they’re gonna win up, they’re gonna wanna run away.

Garrett:
Okay. And one of your objectives is to help men grow up. but you know that saying that says you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Right. And so, right. Is it, is that saying true? Can, can people truly establish new patterns, new opinions, new behaviors throughout, through recovery, through therapy, through mindfulness?

Eddie:
Right. Absolutely. And, and it’s not just through mindfulness that, that these new patterns and behaviors are developed, but it, it is through the development of new mindsets. It is really all about a mindset. And we have so much scientific data now to show that we can take these old, neural pathways and again, a neural pathway or messages that the brain has developed over the years. So example is I can’t sit in discomfort. Okay. That’s a neural pathway. And we can change and we can open up a new neural pathway where a person can learn and say, oh, you know what? I can sit with my discomfort. It’s not gonna kill me. In fact, actually beneficial for me. But that, that again, that become part of repetition, become part of a, a, the treatment where we’re tier people to develop new messages and start to understand what are the benefits of these new messages that they’re trying to develop.

Garrett:
Let’s say one of our viewers or listeners, they want something that will help them learn to sit with the emotional discomfort. Do you have any tools, practical tools or methods that you help your patients be able to sit with emotional discomfort and like practice that as if it is a muscle and build that neural pathway?

Eddie:
Yes. And basically, basically it’s as simple as, you know what, just do it work out on we are going to do it. And that’s the assignment they have. Here’s your pain point, and then what we’re gonna do, we’re gonna sit with them. And a lot of times I’ll do that one-on-one with them first to let them sit and process. So what do we wanna do when we’re sitting there with that vein? Well, one, I wanna un, I wanna identify first and foremost and realize I, I do have emotions. I have, I have a lot of emotion. Oh yeah. That’s number one. Right. Second, I want them to sit there and identify what are those emotions? So therefore they get out a pad and a pencil and they start writing ’em down. What is it that I’m feeling? But for those who are still struggling, what I tell them to do is go to a thought first.
What are the thought that are running around in your head? Write those down. And then with those thought, now go and look for the emotion to see if you can link them together. And then what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna try to take five minutes to sit here with some of the pain, when have I felt this before? Try to go back into something, some other event that happened while we were younger that we can correlate diff to you. And then, and then a very important key to all of this too, Jared, is what is your body saying? Where, where are you feeling this pain in your body? Is you feel your test, you know, tightening up? Are you starting to feel like you’re getting a headache? You know, are you starting the field of the, like you almost feel the blood running through your, your vein or you starting to get cooler or you starting to get hotter? What’s going on? So see, I want them to be able to, at some point be able to identify, ooh, my mood has changed. And I can tell, not just because of what’s going on in my head, but what’s also going on through my body.

Garrett:
Right. There’s physiological changes.

Eddie:
Many, many,

Garrett:
A lot of us have blind spots. And the the tough thing about a blind spot is that we don’t know that they exist. Right. And that’s why it’s called a blind spot. But, in your book you mentioned 14 of the blind spots.

Eddie:
Correct.

Garrett:
And I’m wondering if you can speak to what a blind spot is and how you help men identify them.

Eddie:
Yes. Well, you take a step back, you know, blind spot is associated again with an individual being emotionally undeveloped. And when we talk about, okay, what does that mean, you’re emotionally undeveloped? Well, you know, in our early years of childhood development, parents are supposed to be giving us the guidance instruction, the nurturing in areas such as attunement, empathy, sitting with our emotional pain trust. And when we don’t get those for a variety of different reasons, including the fact that parents may not have that skillset, we wind up being emotionally undeveloped. So what I recognize in my work with men was the fact that we had many, what I did call the blind spot. And what if a blind spot, a blind spot or characteristic that will impede your ability to generate and maintain a healthy relationship. Okay. And that’s why I came up with 14 of those.

Garrett:
We don’t need to mention all 14. For those who do want to know all 14 blind spots, they should go get your book. But I want to know, what are a few of your favorite to address?

Eddie:
Okay. What I do, I’ll tell you about what I think are the most critical. Yeah. Um, one, we’ve, we’ve been talking about the inability to sit with emotional pain. I, I truly believe in my heart, Garrett, that anyone who’s dealing with, you know, the problematic behaviors that if you don’t learn how to sit with your emotional discomfort, you’re never gonna be able to overcome that., I truly believe that. Um, the second one that I think is most critical is inwardly focused. Okay. This is where, again, a child growing up is not being given the tools, the nurturing that they need from their parent, and therefore they feel in a way that I’m not really loved. I feel I have to do it all on my own. There’s nobody really there for me. So therefore they’ve become inwardly focused again as a coping strategy. But what happens is, again, as you take that into your teen world and your adult world staying there, it it limits your ability to look outward at what are the needs, wants and desire of others. Because you’re so focused first on yourself. Yeah. And therefore you limit what you can do for other people. And that one really is a very troublesome when it comes to relationships. As you could well imagine. Right. And then, and then the last one I’ll mention to you, and it’s kind of like a funny, when people wonder, wow, how’d that get in there? It’s the lack of curiosity, and I’m not talking about the lack of curiosity when it comes to things such as maybe sports or politic gardening, dog cooking. You may be very curious with all of those we’re talking about curiosity with people

Garrett:
Making another abrupt pivot from blind spots to emotional IQ. We’ve already s we’ve already talked a lot about, emotional intelligence and emotional MA maturity. And that your, your one of your objectives is to help men grow up. Why do you think that emotional IQ is one of the most important things a person can develop?

Eddie:
Well, because basically, you know, we are emotional being, and we do crave, um, emotional it cause of things such as trauma or neglect. Many of us just don’t know. That’s what we crave. You know, one word that appears in my book so often is the word oblivious, which is so oblivious to so much of it. But emotional intimacy is the bedrock of a relationship. And unfortunately, and I’m gonna take us down a different path right now, but unfortunately too many of us build relationship based on physical intimacy and not emotional intimacy. And what that does, those are the relationships that experience the most trouble. And when they get very difficult, those couples who don’t have a foundation, they don’t have that foundation they can lean on to help them get in, get through those difficult circumstances. And so therefore that usually winds up leading the chaos.

Garrett:
Is there a correlation, do you know any research that shows a correlation between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy?

Eddie:
Without a doubt. There are numerous studies that show that, the couples who don’t have a high level of emotional intimacy also drag down when it comes to the physical intimacy in their relationship. So that’s one of the reasons why I work with men so much to help them to develop that emotional aspect of themselves because of what’s needed in a relationship. They’re sitting there and they’re wondering, how come she doesn’t wanna be intimate with me? Well, you know what, just because you walk up and you pat her on the butt and you say, Hey, you ready? That’s not, that’s not gonna be enough there. Where, what else are you doing? Sexual desire, sexual energy is something that is built during the course of a day at an evening. It’s not something you just, you know, just, Hey, you wanna go have sex? Yeah. Sometimes that’s fine. But real true passionate emotion, intimacy, it’s something again that we nurture. And we start to cultivate that, you know, throughout the day, throughout the week, whatever time we need. Right. To be able to make somebody feel desired and want it.

Garrett:
So what you’re saying is emotional, better emotional IQ equals better sex.

Eddie:
Absolutely. There are many studies out there that that will, definitely show that that’s a strong correlation between the two.

Garrett:
And just to be clear, that doesn’t mean that their libidos are gonna be equal at all times. That’s really, that’s rarely the case because we’re unique individuals with unique experiences, unique biology. So it’s not that their libido are equal, it’s that, like you said, there’s a mutual respect, there’s a mutual emotional intelligent connection and that facilitates better connection, which includes sexual intimacy as well.

Eddie:
Absolutely. And you know what, typical cause libidos are not the same. If you are connecting on all cylinders from an emotional standpoint, a person who may have a bit of a lower libido will, you know what? Don’t make effort to still start to engage physically because again, mentally and emotionally they are so charged and, and feeling so close and passionate that even though they may not, you know, be in desiring it at that moment, you know what they understand if I start to engage, you know, I will get into that passion. Also, when we are emotionally undeveloped, we’re missing out.
We’re missing out on half of our life at least, if not more. Okay. We’re, we’re not attuned to it. I’ll give you a quick little story. I have one client of mine, um, I worked with him for about two years. He was doing great. he came in one day, it was the spring, and he’s looking out the window and he said to me, he goes, you know, is it just me or do the leaves? The leaves seem so much brighter this year, . And I said to him, I go, no, it’s you. The leaves are about the same brightness they’ve always been, but now you’re enjoying it. You’re, you are embracing it, you’re being mindful about your surrounding and, and you’re capturing it and you’re having you positive emotions about the beauty that you see. And when you do that, that’s when we start living versus just existing.

Garrett:
Yeah. I have to ask this next question based on what our podcast is about. As you know, Eddie, the name of our podcast is Considered Before Consuming. And the goal is to help people make an educated decision regarding pornography. So the question I have is, how does porn mainstream internet porn, how does porn impact emotional intelligence?

Eddie:
Oh, that’s a great question. let’s look at it this way. one, what does porn do to grow your ei I can’t really quite think of anything because porn is just focused on the physical aspect of a connection between people.

Garrett:
Yeah. It’s hyper-focused on the orgasm and on power.

Eddie:
Yes. In fact, you just took the words outta my mouth. You are absolutely right. That’s where, that’s where the focus is. There’s no focus on an emotional aspect of it unless, as you just said before, power, violent, fear, intimidation, humiliation. We’re seeing a lot of those emotions important today. Are we not, not, they’re growing in leaps and bounds. None of those are positive or good. So therefore there is nothing to help you grow emotionally from watching pornography.

Garrett:
Do you believe that there’s actually negative emotions? Like do negative emotions exist or, or are they just perceived as negative? And I guess to elaborate a little bit more on my question, I want to ask like, because even the, even the emotions that are often labeled as negative have purpose. They, they can help us in certain ways. And so again, our Do you label certain emotions, negative emotions?

Eddie:
No, I just label ’em all as emotions. Okay. I, I know exactly where you’re going there. I mean, let, let’s take, let’s take anger for example. Right. Uhh There, there’s a lot anger when it’s well placed to be an extremely beneficial, um, emotion. Yeah. Think about, think about the people who are so angry about the exploitation of women or about trafficking. Right? Right. They’re taking that anger and they’re putting it to use. Yeah. They’re try to make a difference. It it become, what do you do with your anger?

Garrett:
It’s how we harness it, I guess.

Eddie:
Correct. And it’s the same thing with fear. Fear, very positive. Fear is we have fears because again, they can keep us safe. Right. However, when our fears are exaggerated, when our fears are based on path circumstances that we’re not experiencing today in the moment, that is when they become destructive to us. So yes, I agree with you. I think all emotion can be beneficial. But again, we could take those and we could really sadness. Okay. Sadness is productive, sense of grieving. However, we’re not careful with that sadness. We’re not careful about how much we ruminate on that moment though, on the circumstances we can find ourselves stuck in depression. Now, go back to what I said before about early childhood development. So a parent doesn’t teach a child to put label to emotions. We don’t put word to emotion. So therefore, let’s say we have a four year old who’s very upset having a meltdown because her who’s about eight, is going to a birthday party.
He can’t go because it’s not his friend. Yeah. And he’s screaming, screaming. And mother comes over, what’s wrong with you? And like, I want to go, wanna go. It’s like, just shut up. You can’t go. She’s going, it’s her friend. If you don’t stop it, I’m gonna thank you. Right? kid doesn’t learn anything. He hasn’t gotten any word to identify what he feels. All he’s been told is that what he’s feeling, which is disappointment Yeah. Is wrong. So now take that same scenario and you get a mother who, or father who says what bothered, we said, what’s wrong? Want to go, want to go, you know what? I understand you want to go, you know what, that makes perfect sense to me. In fact, if I was you, I’d want to go too. However, what you’re really feeling right now, you’re expressing how upset you are.
You’re feeling disappointed. Can you say disappointed? And then you explain to ’em what does disappointment mean. And then, and then you she’ll talk about it. Yes. You can’t, you can’t go with her because they’re not her friend and understand you’re disappointed. But you know what, maybe you and I could sit and watch one of your videos together or do something like that. Now the child understand that, oh, I have different emotions. I can put word to them. And then also what, what we’ve been taught is self-regulation and many of us don’t have good self-regulation and therefore that creates a whole nother, you know, list of issue that we’re trying to deal with.

Garrett:
For individuals who are experiencing unwanted porn consumption, is that a symptom? And does that often stem from what you’re just, what you’ve just talked about?

Eddie:
I believe it. I mean, Jared, I’ll say to three things that I believe are the drivers or people to consume porn. one unresolved childhood pain points. Two are inability to sit with emotional discomfort. And three, being emotionally undeveloped. It is those unresolved childhood pain point that still haunt us, us today. How do they haunt us? Well, they’re the negative event that we experience and what they do is they look very similar or should I say they feel very similar to something we experienced in a past. Now in some cases that may be all subconscious and we may not even be aware of what the circumstance from the path was. All we know is that we’re feeling this heightened level of discomfort. Now we go to my second point. I can’t sit with this discomfort. Okay, what did I talk about earlier? What did we train ourself to do? Run away. Yeah. Okay. Distract myself. So I do that. And then three, being emotionally undeveloped, it’s the fact that we are oblivious. So the reason why we think, feel, and act the way we do, we become, we’ve become creatures of habit and patterns and we don’t take the time to sit and try to really figure out again, why do I think, feel, and act the way I do? Because once you have the answer to that question, at least in my mind, I think you’re very empowered to make real changes in your life.

Garrett:
Yeah. And going back to what we talked about earlier, we were talking about how porn, the script that porn provides can be unhealthy because it, it’s hyper-focused on the orgasm and that it also shows aggression, those p unhealthy power dynamics. Also.

Eddie:
Can I tell you something else? Can I tell you something else? It does, yeah. It gives, it gives the wrong message. Okay. For example, alright, what if it teaching young boys, it teaching young boys it’s okay to objectify other people, especially little girls. But now remember we talked before about the idea that more and more women are watching pornography or girl, even girls are watching pornography. What if it’s teaching them it’s okay to be objectified? And so now think about the message that we’ve given took the daughter view of sex. Yeah. You know, and especially if porn become more violent and degrading. In fact, I had one couple came in, this was several years ago, and they were a young couple. They were probably in her early twenties and they were, she was so upset because they have only been married for a short period of time. They waited until they got married to have sex. And one of the times after, probably about the couple months into, their marriage, he start choking her during sex. And she’s like, what? And she throws ’em off him and she’s like, furious. What are you doing? And he’s like, what do you mean, what am I doing? I thought you would like that. So what would make you think I would like that go for you? If you look at what happens in porn? But people, women seem to be thrilled by all of it.

Garrett:
We’ve already spoken to this a little bit, but I want to emphasize it again because I think it’s that important. And it’s one of the things that porn leaves out and it it, it leaves out the importance of non-sexual touch in romantic relationships. And I think that’s one thing that was missing in my relationship with my spouse for several years. You know, it ha it typically happens as you’re dating. There’s more non-sexual touch. And then for, for whatever reason, we got caught up in this, in this cycle of, we didn’t do enough of the non-sexual touch and it really did negatively impact our relationship And today we’re doing better at that, where we do engage in more non-sexual touch. And it’s, it’s really, it really does add to our relationship. It’s really fun.

Eddie:
Well, I mean, think about the message you send if you’re not engaging in the non-sexual touch. It’s like, oh, the only time touch me is if you wanna be sexual with me.

Garrett:
Yeah.

Eddie:
That’s it.

Garrett:
Physical touch is a need. It, it’s right behind like food and water and rest. And so our brains can’t develop without a healthy level of non-sexual touch.

Eddie:
Well cause it shows that we are desired. Someone desires us. Yeah. Okay. And it doesn’t always have to be sexual. Right. Okay. You just, you, you, you accept me and what do we want? One of the things that we definitely need is the sense of belonging. So therefore it’s like, Ooh, I belong to you. what did I say now? Now it’s like, oh, you’re my person. Right. That’s the gene to beest thing that goes out there belong. But, but it’s so critical before the mindset for the emotional mindset to feel that sense that, oh, I do belong. Yeah. At that point, that’s what non-sexual touch does.

Garrett:
Yeah. The last time we spoke, like I mentioned, you mentioned that your wife helps individuals who have experienced betrayal trauma. And so I’m wondering if you can speak to betrayal trauma a little bit. How can a person’s porn consumption impact their significant other?

Eddie:
Oh wow. I mean,, there’s been so many studies that have been done on this subject that even fight the new drug, have done an excellent job of outlining what are the ill effects of porn on relationships. So, so let me ju I’ll just run off a few to you. Okay. Um, studies have demonstrated that one, um, a person’s attraction to their partner suffers. They’re not as attractive to them

Garrett:
For the consumer or for the person that

Eddie:
For the consumer. two, we create distance and isolation. Right. Because what happens is many people, as you know, who start to get really heavily involved in watching pornography, they tend to isolate more. Okay. And a lot of that, their shame that they have and feel Um, it leads to self-worth issues in those who’ve been betrayed. They start to wonder and think, am I not good enough? You want something else, you want something different than what I can provide. Um, one thing that really breaks my heart so much, I’m sure you’ve seen this too, is that that how many times have we seen, the person who who’ve been betrayed has consented to, to engage in different sexual act that they feel very uncomfortable with, but they do it because they want to appe their partner. And they were afraid that, well, if I don’t do this, they’re gonna go run off and do it with someone else. And where did they find these act? They found her from looking at pornography. So therefore they engage, I remember one, um, couple where the woman, what he convinced her to engage in a threesome with another man and she did it. And afterward she, she went into a major state of depression. she almost, she tried to commit suicide. She was just devastated because she never thought she would ever do anything like that in her light. Yeah.

Garrett:
You’re kinda, you’re kind of speaking to more of like degrading or dangerous behaviors that are portrayed in porn oftentimes and how absolutely. The, the consumer can pick those up as a script.

Eddie:
Correct. Absolutely. And as you’re seeing that script is becoming more predominant in porn today, we’re seeing more and more of that. I know there was one producer, I remember reading a quote, that, you guys did a, an article on where he said, this is what the consumer is demanding. And that’s why we’re doing things that are more humiliating, degrading, and harmful to people. So that’s just a fewer things that, you know, the way that porn can actually wind up being harmful to the partner.

Garrett:
How long does it typically take for a person who is, who has experienced betrayal trauma to like navigate their betrayal trauma and come out the other end, like see the light at the end of the tunnel and finally arrive at that light?

Eddie:
Yeah, both, both people are gonna tell you, both clinicians are gonna tell you anywhere from 18 month to three years. It may be even longer. However, that’s too basic of a, of a answer and it doesn’t put in a lot of other, let me say this again. We’re not dealing with black and white, we’re dealing with gray. So therefore it depends on many things. One, how much effort is the betrayer the consumer putting into recovery? Are they, are they committed to that or are they not committed? That’s gonna play a part in it? Two, the consumer is the consumer working on their emotional development. Okay. They’re learning how to become emotionally engaged and commit, things, the person who’ve been betrayed have, they’ve suffered other betrayals in the past. Yeah. But then what you see, you see the muddling of the two Right. World. And therefore, like, clinicians like my wife, what they have to do first is have to pull these two things apart.

Garrett:
Yeah.

Eddie:
So you put the past over here to deal with it, and then you have what’s in the present. And then even, you know, are those who’ve been betrayed? Are they doing their work? Are they with a clinician? Are they in a support group? Cause if not, what happens? A lot of times you see, the consumer has, you know, done really well and they’re like, Hey, look at me. Don’t you wanna pat me on the back? And they’re like, are you kidding? I’m sitting here and I’m still bleeding. Yeah. So there are many, many factors that play into it. I’ve seen recovery in less than a year, and I’ve seen people who are doing it 20 years out. It depends on how much effort time they put into it and how committed they are to wanting to get that relationship back to where it is.

Garrett:
I remember you saying that there’s two complaints that the betrayed usually have. The first complaint is that the consumer, the betrayer broke their heart. And the second complaint is that he or she is not emotionally attached.

Eddie:
Right.

Garrett:
Those are the two complaints. And so I think that if we’re trying to give hope to the situation and we’re trying to provide some advice to those who are experiencing problematic porn consumption that’s disrupting the, their romantic relationships or other relationships, one of the important things is developing emotionally and developing a healthy attachment with your significant other.

Eddie:
Right. And that’s why I say being sober is not enough. Yeah. Just the fact that I’m no longer doing x is not good enough. We need to be able to learn how to engage emotionally. Cause how do we get there? How do we get here in the first place? Right. Well, there again, there, there are many different factors. Okay. One, a lot of people bring this stuff into the relationship before they, you know, before they get married or, or, or they’re just together. But again, in, in many cases, there’ve never been the real emotional bond. It’s been like this. And why, because many people wind up becoming more focused on the physical intimacy than the emotional intimacy. And therefore then that can just fall apart. And so that’s why, you know, the whole reason behind the book of why men drug her for love is to wake up.
You know, the people in this, you know, industry of, of, of healing to say, Hey, you know what? It takes a lot more than just making sure that they are sexually sober. They also need to learn to engage because again, if they’re, if they are now sexually sober, but they don’t know how to emotionally engage, what are you gonna send them back to? Where, where are they going? Yeah. They’re gonna, they’re gonna wind up incurring the same problem, the same frustration that they’ve always had. Okay. They want that connection. They want the emotional intimacy. They just don’t know it.

Garrett:
Well, Eddie, we want to say thanks for being with us today, but before we end this conversation, I do want to leave you with the opportunity to have the last word. Is there anything that you want to reemphasize or something that’s been left unsaid that you wanna mention?

Eddie:
Well, well, I think we covered a lot., that’s for sure.. Um, but I, I I will say this. Okay. None of this is easy. Recovery is not easy. It’s been, it a long journey for both parties Okay. For the consumer as well as for those who’ve been betrayed. But I, one thing I guess I really wanna stress is that for those who are trying to work to remove pornography from their lives, the commitment must be strong. I’ve seen too many people who just figured, oh yeah, let me go to this group. Let me go to my counselor for so long. I, yeah, okay. I know I’m not supposed to do this. And they don’t do the deep self-reflection to, again, understand the why question, why do I think, feel, and act the way I do? And we need those answers because that is what’s going to keep us from going back to the bad behaviors that we’ve had in the, in the, path. Look at, I think it’s, people need to look within their heart to understand, am I really doing everything I can do to beat, not just beat this, but as I said before, to live a complete life

Garrett:
Again, Eddie, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. It was a pleasure.

Eddie:
Oh, thank you. The pleasure is all mine. Look forward to seeing you again at some point. Yep. Two, except we hear from the

Garrett:
Now two year, two years from now. We’ll count on

Eddie:
Okay. Bye-bye.

Garrett:
All right. Take care.

Outro:
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science facts and personal accounts. If you’d like, like to learn more about today’s guest and the conversation we had, you can check out the links included with this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider Before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support, Consider Before Consuming, you can make a one time or recurring donation of any amount ftnd.org/support. That’s ftnd.org/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness. Look both ways. Check your blind spots and consider before consuming.