Introduction (00:00:00):
For today’s conversation, we sit down with a panel of individuals who each have a unique perspective on porn addiction recovery. Our guests include Chandler Co-founder of Relay, Chris, a licensed counselor, and Matthew and Dayne, who are both currently in recovery for porn addiction. The panel delves into the relational, psychological, and emotional toll of addiction, and the importance of connection and support and overcoming addiction, giving hope that healing is possible. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (00:00:48):
For our listeners, we have something kind of exciting and different. Today. We’ve got a panel for amazing individuals here today to talk with you a little bit about their experiences and their, the different expertise they have to speak to these issues. So we’re gonna start with some introductions. Chandler, would you like to go first and introduce yourself to our audience?

Chandler (00:01:11):
Yeah, sure. So, I’m Chandler. I’m the Co-founder and CEO of Relay Health. Relay is an organization that provides digital programs for people overcoming sexual addiction, including pornography. I personally struggled with pornography for about 12 years, and, you know, ultimately through my own story, realized I couldn’t do this alone. I attended group or many years, and just started to realize that so many people I think, deal with this in isolation, and it’s such a hard thing to talk about, to know how to get support for. And so it was actually a, a school project at first where I had an opportunity to build an app, and I had just this thought of, you know, what if it were easier to find a community of other people who were trying to overcome pornography and make it less shameful, less scary to do that together. And so ended up working on it. And then four years later it’s become our full-time focus and something that I’m deeply passionate about trying to help people to overcome this together. So that’s a little bit about me. It’s personal, something I personally struggled with, but now I get to spend a lot of my time working in groups with all these other people.

Fight The New Drug (00:02:25):
Awesome. And for any of our listeners, Chandler has been on the podcast before. If you recognize some of his story or feel familiar with Relay, that could be why. So we’re excited that he was able to help us put together this panel today. Chris, would you like to introduce yourself next?

Chris (00:02:42):
Yeah, happy to. My name’s Chris Chandler. I’m a licensed professional counselor, and I’m a certified sex addiction therapist. I’ve been in the field for a little over 20 years. I was trained with Dr. Trained by Dr. Patrick Carnes, who’s, you know, arguably the pioneer in the world on sex addiction recovery and, and really has kind of expanded into all forms of addiction recovery. I actually worked with him about six years for about six or seven years on a multimillion dollar study called the Fulbright Study, looking for the genetic link for sex addiction. So this is my passion. This is what I do, and I’m just honored to be here.

Fight The New Drug (00:03:15):
Thank you so much. We’re excited to have you on this panel today. Chris Matthew, why don’t we jump to you?

Mathew (00:03:21):
Yeah, sure. So I’m Matthew. I am 43 years old, and I, I’m married. I have five kids. And sadly, I have struggled with an addiction to porn and masturbation since I was a small boy. I was five and I was molested by a young man who lived in our home. And it really sexualized me from a young age, and it’s been something that I’ve struggled with for almost all my life. I’m now six months into recovery in a real way, I’d say. ’cause it was, it was six months ago almost to the day that I found Relay. It actually came it was an, it was came via an an email from Fight the New Drug, and it was advertised, and I saw it and clicked on it and immediately downloaded the, the app and began the program that week. And now I’m 102 days free from any type of sexual compulsive behaviors. And it’s been huge, huge part of my healing and just, just, just excited to be here today.

Fight The New Drug (00:04:53):
Well, first of all, congratulations on that 102 day journey into your healing. We wanna celebrate that with you. And also, I just wanna thank you for your courage to be willing to come on this podcast and share your story. Unfortunately, there are many people who’ve experienced similar things to what you’ve experienced, and I think there’s a lot of power in being able to hear from individuals who have been through these experiences. So thank you so much for being here, and we’ll dive into your story a bit more as we kind of move through the panel. But Dayne, let’s, let’s jump over to you for an introduction as well.

Dayne (00:05:32):
Yeah, my name’s Dayne. I’ve been struggling with sexual addiction for probably close to 30 years. And I’m, I’ve got four kids married, I mean house dog, like all the normal things. But this has been a thing that’s just been a part of my life that I’ve drug along with me, or whether it’s pulled me, I guess it’s just been a bondage. But I, I can say I’m 2 40, 245 days in sobriety. And I’m sure we’ll get into more things later, but it’s it’s amazing what, what you can do when you start walking into health. And so, yeah, that’s me.

Fight The New Drug (00:06:08):
Well, and congratulations to you as well on that. I’m so excited for our listeners to get to hear from individuals who are actively working on this recovery journey. And thank you also for being willing to come on here and, and speak transparently about your experiences as well. Dayne and Matthew, I would love to start with a question for both of you. Each one of you is in recovery from, from porn addiction or sex addiction, as you mentioned, Dayne. Can you talk about why you decided to take that step and how these addictions were impacting your lives? Dayne, maybe we can start with you.

Dayne (00:06:45):
Sure, yeah, I can start with that. I would say for me, like why I decided to take this step. The, it doesn’t seem like it was so much of like a decision. ’cause that sounds like it was some purposeful thing that I just kind of like thought through and did what for me, it was more of, I was in a cycle of just being pulled by this and controlled by this. And I had tried many times to get out of it, and it was unsuccessful. I think I would get weeks of sobriety, but it was always there. And one of the things I discovered was that there was deeper issues underlying this. And this was just an outlet that I was using to deal with pain and stuff. But for me it came to a, a breaking point for my wife discovering some things.

(00:07:27):
And we had gone through that path before, but this last time she basically threw up her hands and was like, I’m giving up. I’m done. And that was a different level for me because she had gotten to where we’re just gonna have to coexist. And and then, but she was also considering like, being done completely and leaving. So it became to the point for me, it wasn’t deciding to take that step as it was. I was just in, in desperation of what can I do? And, and realizing that I needed to step outside of myself, that I have a broken system that I’m making, that I’m trying to use for logic, and it’s not working for me. It’s not working. I need outside help. I need someone to step in. I need to lean into things that I haven’t done before. Things like this where I’m saying like, I’m gonna pull stuff out of the darkness and I’m gonna step into light and let this be shown and let other people who have better knowledge than me ’cause I, ’cause I’m stuck. And so that was kind of for me, what I started to do. And it wasn’t really more of the decision, it was more of just, like I said, just stepping into things that I didn’t know what the outcome was going to be and just stepping into those.

Fight The New Drug (00:08:35):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Matthew, how about for you? What led you to start this journey on your end?

Mathew (00:08:40):
So I have tried to quit corner masturbation for so many times during my life. It was it was, I think it was a, a constant cycle, just similar to Dayne said. I never really had any true long-term success. I don’t know that I really know, knew what I was doing. I don’t think I had the tools or the knowledge to find true recovery. I think I, most of the time I was just white knuckling it as long as I could. And and when I, I just, I felt so shameful for what I was doing. I I wanted to stop so badly and I, I felt like I was never going to overcome it. And I was looking for any type of help. I could find, I listened to your, this podcast, I listened to others. And and the one thing that I really stood out to me was that I needed to find connection and I needed to be vulnerable and, and, and have, and have the courage to share my story. So when I saw this ad for Relay that I spoke of earlier, I, I, I, I, I understood and comprehended what that meant and the opportunity. And I jumped in thinking, this is my chance. You know, I, I, this will be the opportunity that I have to really share. And it, it wasn’t a scary because there wasn’t people that I knew who would be there. You know, it’s, it’s like a starting point where you could begin and, and practice being vulnerable for the first time. And that, that’s what drew me to it.

Fight The New Drug (00:10:41):
Yeah. Thank you both for sharing that. Chris, I wanna jump to you for a minute. Can you speak a bit about how the brain responds to pornography over time and why it makes recovery so challenging? we heard from both Dayne and Matthew that, you know, it was a struggle to try quitting previously. And can you just speak a bit to why that is?

Chris (00:11:03):
Yeah, I appreciate you guys sharing your stories. I mean, that is, that’s what this is about, right? It is really understanding that this is rooted in our story and, and our development. And so I think what I would probably just summarize is maybe just a quick his, just a quick overview of brain development. Would that be okay? I think I can do it in like one minute timing. Let’s see how I do here. I always carry my brain with me. This is a colorful brain. If you’re, if you’re listening, you don’t have to go watch the show too. ’cause it’s, it’s beautiful. So I’ll summarize this very succinctly. Dan Siegel at UCLA is probably one of the lead the world’s leading researchers on the development of the brain. But three main parts, brainstem, limbic area and prefrontal cortex. And basically what you have is a child, brain, the teenage brain and the adult brain.

(00:11:44):
And the average age of onset for pornography currently, I believe is around 11 years old. It keeps going down in numbers with the increasing access to the internet. And so what you need to know is the brain wires from the bottom up, it wires electrically. And so structurally it’s formed, but electrically it’s wiring. And so zero to 10 is primarily the wiring down here. And it’s mostly controlling body functions and physical sensations in the body. And so what that means for us personally is that when I feel scared as a little, a little a child, or I feel unseen, or I feel excited, that’s getting hardwired into the nervous system, into my physical body. The pioneer in the world on trauma, Bessel VanDerKolk, his, his book is called The Body Keeps the Score, literally the body holds these feelings deeply embedded into our nervous system.

(00:12:31):
And then the limbic system comes online that the, the, the teenage brain around age 11,12 this is, this is where sexuality is really getting, you know, wired emotional connection. Amygdalas is housed here. So all of a sudden this is kind of the gas pedal of the brain. Every, if it feels good, it is good, right? It’s the pleasure, reward center of the brain. And so we’re stacking basically sexuality on top of whatever was going on down here. And it and so you introduce something like pornography into that developmental process. It is like crack cocaine, like the brain does not designed to experience that level of stimulation, right? We call it a super normal stimuli. It’s, it’s, it’s overwhelming for the brain. And so when, when we start firing that limbic area, especially excessively, what we now understand about the electrical wiring, the development of the prefrontal cortex, the adult part of the brain, which comes online around 16, maybe 17 years old, and finishes wiring at age 25, is that when we’re lighting up this part of the brain, the limbic part, it literally shuts down.

(00:13:33):
It creates a ceiling, and this part of the brain goes dark. So we’re, we’re basically inhibiting our capacity to develop a prefrontal cortex, our adult brain, which is where oxytocin is really released. It’s where bonding and, and attachment and connection it’s where insight is developed and empathy and attunement. And so from like 11, 12, 13, wherever we were introduced to this kind of experience, the brain is a habit forming machine. And we just kept lighting that part of the brain up and not allowing ourselves to really develop that capacity for real authentic human intimacy and relationship. And so we just kind of left to our own devices, right? It’s like, this is what has driven us, it’s what we know, and, and we get stuck there. Literally, it’s, it’s a form of brain damage. We’re, we’re kind of stuck in like a 12-year-old, 13-year-old, 15-year-old ego state.

(00:14:22):
And and so it’s no wonder why when we come at this to say, oh, okay, I’m gonna stop this bad behavior at 20, 30, 40 years old. It’s like, I can’t, right? I’ve, I’ve wired, I’ve hardwired this into my anatomy, into my physiology, and just trying to convince myself with this part of my brain trying to convince this part of the brain to change, Hey, this is destroying your marriage. Hey, you should stop this. It doesn’t work. We call it a top down approach. And it’s not, it’s not enough to, to transform that, that part of the brain the way we’ve wired it.

Fight The New Drug (00:14:51):
First of all, thank you. That was a beautiful masterclass in a very condensed amount of time on how the brain works and how pornography specifically impacts the brain. And I will just reiterate, for anyone who’s listing only, go check this out on YouTube so that you can see the beautiful model of the brain that Chris just used to walk us through that. I’m curious to know, Chris, and then I’d love to hear from the rest of you as well. From your perspective as a licensed therapist, are there common patterns among people who struggle to make progress in, in overcoming pornography?

Chris (00:15:24):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, the good news is we have a lot of data, like a growing body of data. And, and Patrick Carnes, again, is probably one of the leaders in the world on, on that data. And, you know, one of the things he has found in his research, a among many, but has always really stuck with me is that he followed a, a bunch of people that were trying to get sober from pornography over the course of a year after leaving inpatient treatment. And he found three common factors, three features, three, three patterns of that people seem to have when they were struggling to establish that sobriety. Number one was an under structured program. And, and that’s, it’s, it’s somewhat relative, but basically what it translated to was that people, you know, are trying to read a book to stop this. They maybe download some accountability software, they talk to a friend, they try a few things here and there, but it’s, it’s not nearly enough, again, to intervene on the level that we need.

(00:16:12):
We can’t just, there’s a saying in aa, we can’t think, you can’t think your way outta something that you behaved your way into. So we can’t just like read a book and try and change our thinking, like, we have to change our whole life. So I need to go to the gym. I mean, it’s as basic as like sleep and diet and exercise. It’s learning how to recognize what I’m feeling. So when we say under structured program, it means that there’s just a common pattern of not knowing what all needs to be changed in my life to be able to make that, that lasting impact. You know, with sobriety, the second thing that he found was that people that have not written a first step or, or maybe they’ve written one, but they haven’t shared it, or they wrote it and shared it, but it wasn’t really as complete and thorough and details it needed to be.

(00:16:57):
And what the first step is for those that don’t know of the 12 steps of AA, was that our li that we were admitted that we were powerless over, you know, fill in the blank in this case pornography, and that our lives had become unmanageable. And really what the heart of this is, is writing out a thorough inventory, a detailed accounting of like, this is how deep the rabbit hole has gone for me. And getting really honest with myself, that’s what step one is about, is being, is breaking through the denial and not to continuing to try and fool myself to think, oh, it’s not that big of a deal. I can stop any time everyone does it. You know, it’s not hurting anybody. All that, all those rationalizations kept us stuck for so long, we couldn’t change. And so we have to take a thorough accounting and it, it really needs to be written.

(00:17:41):
We say, if it’s not written, it’s not real. And, and, and detail that. And then we’re back to relationship where there’s another saying in 12 steps that if we don’t take the first step until we give it away, meaning we have to invite other human beings into that and, and name it out loud, share it. And the last thing was that it was undisclosed secrets. He found that people that couldn’t, you know, establish and sustain sobriety were people that were still holding back, still trying to keep things in their own will, trying to do it on their own, not being brutally honest. Yeah. And so as a result, kind of still stuck in their shame and stuck in their self will and ego.

Fight The New Drug (00:18:17):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of those. From your personal experiences. Matthew, maybe we can start with you. Are there any things you experienced that you can speak to, kind of backing up what Chris has said, but in your own experience and maybe even building upon that, just noting how this time things have been different how your approach has been different now that maybe you have some of this information to work with.

Mathew (00:18:44):
Yeah, so, you know, as I’ve began to share and compare stories with some of my buddies and I call ’em brothers that I’ve, you know, made on, on Relay I’ve learned that my story is almost identical to so many of theirs. And it’s like, oh my goodness, I had this, you know, same thought process that would go through my head and I would think this, this, and this. And it would lead me to, to, to, you know, to a relapse. And the more that I’ve, you know, connected and with them, I, I could see that, you know, I’m not alone, you know, this is affecting all of us in the same way. You know, we have similar, similar boundaries, similar triggers. And that was helpful just to, to know that, you know, I’m not, I’m not alone. This, I’m not abnormal this, we’re, we’re, Dana is the saying that, you know, we’re not special.

(00:19:45):
We’re, we’re pretty much, you know, wired very similarly. And and to go on to what Chris had a say, I mean, it, it’s huge, like, getting it out. I know that’s what I needed. Like I, I joined Relay ’cause I, I saw this as that opportunity, that low hanging fruit to really start sharing. And I joined my first live meeting my first week. And it was, it was scary, but it felt so good to just get that out there and just share. And, and I just kept coming back as much as I could. And every week, you know, sometimes I’d start going, you know, we’d have multiple, and I, there gotta the point where I’d go to two or three in a week. And, and that it was very healing to be able to, to, to share. And then there’s also the component of, of the of our, of the app where we have a, we have a team that we’re put on and we can share with that team on a daily basis.

(00:21:01):
You know, we can, we can, it’s like a message board, we can just go back and forth. And in sharing there was extremely helpful as well. And just getting the support of the team, I, I, I found it extremely strengthening to me, anytime I ever felt an urge, I could reach out to the team. There’s a log and urge throw, a red flag feature. And I, if I did that, it was like that urge went away and I didn’t have it anymore. And it was super powerful. And the team was always there just to jump in and support me. And it just, it, it was, it’s, it’s been a healing process and we’ve, and we learned together. You know, someone’s like, oh, I, I, I relapsed and, you know, what did you learn from that? You know, you know, how can, how can we all grow from this? And we’d share and we all help each other. It’s, it’s, it was, it’s super strengthening.

Fight The New Drug (00:21:56):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. We often hear in this space and in this work that the opposite of addiction is connection. And I think you’re really speaking to that. And it is kind of speaking to the power of how, you know, the resource that Relay is, but really the function of Relay, which is to help build that connection and, and find some recovery through that. So Dana, I would love to hear from you if you’re willing to share some of your experiences that speak to both what Chris said and, and also how this, this approach you have now is different than in the past.

Dayne (00:22:29):
Yeah, I would love to talk about it. This, and, and I would say too, like if this stuff Chris just said didn’t like, really resonate with you well, or you kind of glazed over it, you need to rewind and watch that again. ’cause that, that, to me, that’s been key. This kind of, the idea of the uncomplete step one or undisclosed Secrets man. Undisclosed secrets was where I was living in my cycle, and that’s what kept me in it. I say now, one of the things I say is we need to have radical honesty with key relationships. I think that’s a big deal. I don’t think that means you go to your spouse and you just unload everything immediately. I think there’s like a structure to it, but I think you need to find someone, probably a therapist is what I would say to start with and go through that process of unloading all of that stuff in like a structured environment that’s helping you.

(00:23:13):
but you need to step into that because you can’t do this alone. Like, that’s the big thing. I was so in my head. So going over the cycle and trying all these things and thinking I could do it. And, and the the crazy thing that I learned about myself too is that I would get traction and I would, I would take that traction and I would confuse myself by thinking that I’m making progress when I wasn’t really, ’cause I would relapse again. And so I would get this false confidence of like, I’m making it, I’m making it, I’m making it. And then what I was doing was just in this cycle of repeating, and I was, I don’t, I, I don’t know all the science behind it or whatever, but I was just feeding my addiction, even though I was getting kind of success, feeling like I was getting success.

(00:23:52):
It was this weird scenario. And that would just make the highs higher and the lows lower. And I just was cycling and cycling and cycling. But it was all within myself. And the key thing I think, like Chris said, is this, this, these undisclosed secrets are what kept me there. And the, the thing for me was that I would expose layers. So like, I would expose a layer and then feel like I’m doing something, I’m stepping into health, I’m getting better. ’cause I exposed this layer a little bit further than I had before, but I never went to the root of it. No. That, that wasn’t even on the table. And that’s what kept me in that over and over and over again. And one of the things I like to say, like in Relay with our groups is like, one of the things I think that’s powerful that we, that we do is that we’re all honest in our struggles and we’re bold in our victories.

(00:24:34):
We just don’t stop and talking about what we’re dealing with. We go through the victories too, and we talk about those. And it’s so both sides of the coin, we’re constantly talking about those encouraging each other. And I don’t, I don’t see, I don’t know what community you wanna step into, but there is no way I think you can do this in isolation. You have to be in community. So if you look at yourself right now and you’re struggling with this stuff, and you can see like, I have no community, I have all these secrets, then that’s your step one. You know what you need to do. You need to find a community and step into it. And there’s tons of things out there. I highly promote Relay, just like Matthew’s doing. It’s been huge for us. But there’s, I mean, whatever you need to do, step into it.

Fight The New Drug (00:25:11):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think for so many people who have experienced similar things it’s so encouraging to hear kind of what you’ve been through in this really transparent assessment of your own journeys. And I, I hope that that will provide a lot of hope to anyone who’s maybe in kind of the beginning stages of considering, you know, pursuing recovery on their own as well. Chandler, I’d love to invite you to speak to this if, if you’re interested from your personal story and personal experience as well. But also, you know, as kind of an expert who has a lot of experience with Relay, if you can really speak to why connection makes such a difference in recovery. I mean, you’ve all spoken to that to a degree, but I’d love to hear that from you as well.

Chandler (00:25:56):
Yeah, I think all these guys did a really great job summarizing why connection is essential. I, I can remember my first meeting that I ever stepped on or stepped into it was on Zoom. And just the, the fear and wondering like, who’s gonna be on the other end and, and what the heck is this gonna be? Like, I think a lot of people can relate with that. That’s why we spend often years or decades trying to convince ourselves, like maybe if we just tweak something, we can figure this out on our own. But yeah, at some point, you know, I reached that, that breaking realization where I was like, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna try a different approach because my, my data is showing me that the way I’m trying to do this alone is actually not working.

(00:26:39):
And so I’m just gonna try something different. And I, I wanna highlight that it’s probably not gonna feel comfortable. It’s probably not gonna feel like the the step that you’re ready for, but I think it is like a gut check of like, is it what I need to, to, to do something truly different to approach it differently? I think that once you realize, okay, I can’t do this alone, there is one caution that I would say, which is to not necessarily expect that your support system or your group will actually solve this for you. It’s a very fine distinction. It’s, it’s nuanced. So I wanna make sure I’m, I’m clear in how I articulate this. It’s essential to have community, it’s essential to have a good support system. But, but we can’t become overly dependent or codependent I guess Chris can correct me or jump in from a clinical standpoint, when we talk about codependence it, it’s a, maybe an overreliance on that support system.

(00:27:35):
So I think learning how to actually operate within a support system is something that takes time. It, it’s probably gonna be still a little bit of two steps forward, one step back, or trying to figure out and get a feel for how to actually practice action in a healthy way. And to experience that, it’s like a muscle, I think you have to flex it. But I do see some people sometimes that think like, okay, my group, you know, needs to do this stuff for me, or they didn’t respond when I did, you know, throw into the chat, Hey, I’m feeling an urge right now to go look at porn. And if no one responded, well, you know, I guess that this community isn’t, isn’t helping me. And I, I think that there’s an importance in taking ownership and realizing that at the end of the day, this is a personal journey. So it’s just as much about the personal work as it is about the community. But I think what, what the beautiful part is that I’ve seen and I’ve observed from guys like, you know, Dan and Matthew that are seeing a lot of progress, is they’re doing the personal work and that makes the group work and the community 10 times richer, 10 times more valuable.

Fight The New Drug (00:28:36):
Chris, is there, do you wanna add to that? Please?

Chris (00:28:39):
Yeah, I just, I, I love it. I mean, this is my language. I, so I’m, I I just so resonate and connect this, this, I mean, Johann Hari, the opposite of addictions connection. I just wanted to piggyback Chandler and say that I think back to what we were talking about in the brain. The reason for that is that we’re still stuck in a child ego. We’re still stuck in our low brain, right? We’re, we have not really developed, we don’t know how to have authentic, real, intimate relationship. We don’t know how to struggle through that. We’ve, we’ve conditioned our brain to reach for a synthetic, false, fake version of connection, and we’ve completely inhibited our capacity for oxytocin. Oxytocin is this the calm, warm bonding neurotransmitter where there’s attachment and attunement, and we’re at a deficit for that. And so when we come into recovery, it’s not, that doesn’t just like the, the bound, the, the, the scales don’t just immediately tip. This is really unlearning how to like go reach for some synthetic fake version of relationship and learning how to do real relationship. That’s scary. It’s uncomfortable it’s challenging and it’s exhilarating and rewarding. So I just wanted to piggyback on that.

Fight The New Drug (00:30:01):
Yeah, thank you for adding that. And also Chandler, for speaking to what kind of a realistic approach to recovery does look like. Chris, while we’re talking about it, I am curious to know for anyone who thinks, we often hear from people who say, well, I kind of thought, you know, when I would get married, when I got married, I would just quit. And, and this would stop. Or when I had kids, it would just, this would stop. And this is kind of a common idea that people have is like, well, when I decide I want to, I, I can just stop. And you’ve spoken about the way the brain works and why that’s, that’s difficult, but can you also give kind of, what, what does a realistic path to recovery look like for many people? For anyone who has found themself in that cycle, you know, what does it actually look like? What is, what is the amount of time that is realistic for many people to consider actually moving toward recovery?

Chris (00:30:55):
I’m scared to answer that honestly,, because we’re in an immediate gratification world and we want immediate results, right? I signed up for Relay. I did this thing, I took this step, and everything’s supposed to be better, right? I watched this podcast, I did this thing. And the truth is, it’s just not how relationship works. It’s not how development works. It’s not how intimacy works. And so unfortunately, it’s, it’s really not about time. I will say that it’s not about duration. It’s everything about repetition, right? The brain changes with repetition. So it’s how many reps are you putting into real connection, real sobriety? And so Matthew, when you were talking earlier like, man, I experienced this and then I wanted more. It’s like, yeah, like two meetings, three meetings. Like that is putting in really good reps. That’s building a more robust structured program of recovery like Carne was talking about.

(00:31:46):
That’s giving more opportunities for disclosure of my secrets, right? To practice learning how to be being rigorous, honest in relationship marriage does not fix everything. In fact, most often it actually makes it worse because one, we’re chasing a fantasy of what marriage is actually like. We’re not actually chasing, we have no idea what marriage is really like, right? it’s like a dog chasing a firetruck. Like we have no idea what to do with it when we get it. And it, the, the reality is we’re in that committed romantic relationship. It actually exposes more deeply the little boy, little girl that is terrified, like, oh, this is like, this is real. This is scary. This isn’t just like some Disney movie. Like, I gotta like show up with my whole heart. I don’t know how to do that. And so I can go back to a screen.

(00:32:27):
And that’s a lot safer and it’s familiar. And so I think, I think marriage oftentimes is just, is gas on a fire? and so I don’t know if you’re gonna wanna post this, but Patrick found that it takes three to five years of rewiring the brain for it to truly experience long-term transformation. Now, like these guys are saying, you know, that three to five years only happens with you know, one day, seven days, you know, seven months, seven years. So like, it, it’s an incremental process and it’s about building repetition. And so I, I don’t usually lead with that data ’cause then I never see people again.

Fight The New Drug (00:33:03):
Yeah. And, and I understand your hesitation with it. And also I would say, I think there’s a lot of value in that for anyone who has been on this journey, who’s put in a lot of time and maybe does relapse a hundred days in or does relapse, 200 days in, to know that this is a process that does take time. And, and I think there’s something helpful for many people about having a realistic sense of the fact that this isn’t something that, that can shift overnight. And that it does also take active work. Which I wanna talk about a little bit with you Dayne and Matthew maybe Dayne we can start with you. Can you speak to what daily habits or mindset shifts have been the most important for you in your recovery journey?

Dayne (00:33:46):
For me, it was dealing with being uncomfortable. I think part of my acting out in my, my pattern was I got to where there was no thinking involved. It was more of react. I, I, I mean, I’m trying to self-diagnose here, which is not always good. But like, I, I can, I was in painful situations. I knew this was the path and it was almost instinctive to go back to this, to escape that, to gain some control. ’cause I’ve got control in that scenario, right? And so that was my pattern. So I had, for me it was like changing my mind to be able to get to where I’m like, okay, this is painful or scary or risky or uncomfortable, but that’s okay. I’m gonna have to step into this and do it anyway. And I think that’s part of kind of undisclosed secrets too, because like if you can’t get to that point where you’re like, this is gonna be scary, painful, unknown, uncomfortable, like whatever, whatever you want around that, that’s that feeling for you.

(00:34:43):
And, and then say, I’m gonna step into it anyway. If you can’t see yourself doing that, then, then you’re going to stay stuck. At least for me, that was my experience. And so I had to get to a point where I just said, okay, I, I can’t let that control me anymore. That has to be one of the key things for me is that I’m going to step into pain. I’m gonna walk through pain. I’m gonna feel pain. Because another thing I’ve learned too is that I, I, I think a lot of us think this is like, if I could just get healthy, if I could just get past this addiction, the world’s gonna be like rainbows and sunshine or something. But the world doesn’t stop being the world because you’re not addicted anymore. I have things happening now that are kind of difficult or painful in life, but they’re not gonna just stop.

(00:35:26):
So I have to have that shift to where I’m like willing to step into those things. So that’s been a big key thing for me. I think daily habits is a lot of it’s been like, again, finding that community is gonna bring some daily habits in. If you really step into it. Like, a lot of that’s happened from that, like meetings, going to counseling journaling, doing things like that. And then you’re gonna be encouraged through those. If you are doing that with people. Like, if you’re doing that in isolation, again, you’re not, those daily things are, you’re gonna tap out eventually and stop doing them, but ’cause the, again, the things are gonna happen. But if you’re doing it with a community, you keep doing those things. Not like, I think, like Chandler said, not that you’re relying on them for that, but they’re helping encouraging you to keep going. So I think those are a couple big things for me that have, have made a difference.

Fight The New Drug (00:36:08):
Thank you so much, Matthew, how about for you?

Mathew (00:36:11):
Yeah, for sure. So I, I would have to agree with what, what Dan said for starters. There’s no doubt that like stepping into being uncomfortable was huge. Like, that’s, that’s what got me into Relay. ’cause I knew that it was going to gimme that opportunity to experience that. But then, you know, right off the bat, you know, you, when you, when you join relay, there’s, they, they ask you to set up your, you know, what, you know, you create abstinence goals and you define what those are for you. You, you set boundaries. You know that you’re, they’re gonna protect you so you can maintain those abstinence goals. And then you set self-care that’s gonna help strengthen you, you know, through this journey and give you something more positive to focus on. Is, is how I look at it. As I went along my journey, I, I, I saw some immediate success.

(00:37:03):
Like, I went 45 days right off the bat, and I was like, dang, this is, this is sweet. Like, I’m making progress. And, but then I, like, I had a relapse and I was like, oh, dang. And, but what I learned was like, you need to dial those, those boundaries up a notch to, you know, to adjust for every, every situation. Like, oh, I didn’t, I didn’t consider this and I need to adjust here and adapt. And as I have done that, I, I also realized that I wasn’t taking my boundaries like seriously enough. Like if I’m casual with them, I’m gonna be casual in my, in my abstinence goal too. So I don’t, I didn’t couldn’t do that. I had to go all in. And when I committed to being a hundred percent on my boundaries, it made a huge difference. Like, I haven’t had a relapse since.

(00:37:58):
And it was just a mind shift or a mindset shift, right? And that made a big difference for me. And second to that was just a desire to engage. Like, I learned that you could be on these teams and you could all just sit around waiting for somebody to throw a flag and you’re like, oh, hey, do you need help? Can I help you? And it just wasn’t engaging enough if everyone just, you sit around and didn’t do anything. So I, I, I made a goal that I needed to every morning share something and be vulnerable for my previous day, like some reflection or, you know, just where am I at. And as I did that, it really connected me more with the team, and we felt more like brothers. And it was, it was huge. I, I could see I’m actually on two teams and I could see both of my teams like increase in their, the amount of sharing that was happening as a result of my desire to do that same thing.

(00:39:13):
And it’s been incredible to see. And, and we’ve really bonded so, so well, and it, it, it’s, it’s helped. I mean, it, it, it’s one thing if you are on a team with people that you don’t really know, it’s another when you really feel like you know and care about those people and that, that increases that connection. That obviously is the, as we spoke to earlier, is as the opposite of addiction. So that was really helpful for me as I’ve, you know, gone along. I, I, there’s one last feature I just wanted to speak to it that I feel has been really helpful for me. And, and that’s that log and urge feature. Throw the flag. So I have done that and, and committed myself to doing it every time. And what I have found was that every time I did it, it, it, it helped me, it stepped me through this process.

(00:40:05):
There was always like a point in which you could reflect and, and, and do some sort of exercise that helped you out. And that helped me a lot. It really gave me, it allowed my mind to step outside of my current situation and think from a better perspective. And it allowed me to like, okay, you’re better than this. And I could, I, as that other person, I could give myself encouragement as part of this process that, that was designed to help you work through this urge. And I, like I said, I’ve never had a relapse when I actually did that. So I made a commitment that I would never have an urge that I wasn’t going to log and throw a flag. And it’s been huge. And I, I’ve seen that progress and eventually those urges have been, been few and far between, and they’ve gotten to the point where they’re just not happening like they were before.

Fight The New Drug (00:41:02):
That’s great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Matthew Chandler or Chris, do either of you have anything you’d like to add to this question about mindset shifts or daily habits?

Chandler (00:41:11):
Of course I was say, I mean, Chris, you talked about this idea of reps and I’ve spent a lot of time talking with Chris about the brain stuff. And he’s taught me a lot more recently as we’ve talked about how to actually make this process easier. And, and one of the takeaways just for me as a normal, normal person was like, it’s just putting in the work each day. And so I think just that one mindset shift of like, this, just a process of me putting in the work, if that’s all I focus on, the healing will follow pornography will naturally fade away as I focus on helping my brain get the reps through the right type of work. So that, I think that’s been helpful for me along my journey, and I’ve seen that help others.

Dayne (00:41:49):
Yeah, I could say two things. This is Dayne to the mindset shift, like two more things. One would be just the idea that like, like Matthew had said, I’ll say like, we’re not special, but I’m, but the power in that to me is that if someone’s listening to this or hearing us and thinking like, well, he’s so many days sober, I, I’ll never make to that. Like, there’s nothing special about me that you, that these other people can’t do. So that’s super encouraging to me that as I’ve listened to people and heard their stories, there’s so many commonalities between them. And that’s a big thing that I think should be an encouragement, and that’s a mind set shift for me because I had to realize that I can do this. So it’s believing that it can be possible was a big thing.

(00:42:27):
And with that, another thing for me was going through an exercise that I kind of did on my own of just saying like, what would, what would I look like healthy? Like if I was healthy, what would that look like? And exploring that and writing it down so that I have some kind of target in my mind. Because I think a lot of us, I, I can speak for me from my personal experience, I was so deep in this that I hadn’t even pictured what I would look like healthy. ’cause it consumed me so much and I was so busy trying to manage it in whatever way I can that I never thought about what that looked like. So just having those mindset shifts of like, if I was healthy, this is what it would be, and then it is possible for me, or like huge things to start you on that journey. ’cause it’s like we’ve said, it’s gonna be uncomfortable, it’s not gonna be easy, but it’s definitely doable. And you’ve gotta figure out ways to get you to shift your mindset to, to like take that in and start letting that guide you.

Chris (00:43:19):
If I could piggyback on those, I’d love to one, i I, from what I heard you say, Matthew, is that really kind of shifting into what I would call a learning, growing, changing model, right? We’re not outcome driven, right? We’re, we’re really growth driven. We’re learning as we go. And what I heard you say was that, you know, it’s like you have a, a slip or a relapse, god forbid. And yet if it happens, like, it’s like, what’s not like whoopsy daisies and now we’re back at zero. It’s like, no, I didn’t lose all this, you know, growth that I’ve had. I use that to really understand, okay, what happened, right? Relapse is of further evidence of how deep the wound goes. I just showed you the brain. It’s just an evidence that there’s still deeper parts of me that are still, you know, that little boy, that little girl is still needing the connection.

(00:43:59):
And so it’s like, okay, like I want to unpack this and learn from it and grow from it. And yes, I’m gonna increase the structure in my program and I’m gonna intervene more effectively. But if, if the only thing we’re tracking, and this kind of goes to what you were saying, Chandler, is the scoreboard, you know, on the, on the game. Like that’s, that’s really discouraging, right? Especially if you’re in the SEC I’m a college football guy, so, you know, it’s like defensive strategy, right? N score is seven to three. You’re like, dude, what? But there’s so many data points that are playing into that, that are, that are so much more important in my opinion. Now, if we’re not scoring points, then that’s a problem too, right? So the scoreboard is important, but it’s one data point among countless data points. So I think what I hear you guys describing is like recognizing what are the data points?

(00:44:41):
What are the ways that are, what are the levers that are really impacting change, you know, moving forward. And the last thing I would just add, because I’m so deeply committed to the relational connection piece of this, is that we get so focused. The model for me is a three-legged stool of behavior core relational. And I’m not gonna go in depth on it, but I just wanna say that we get so focused on the behavioral leg of the stool changing behaviors that we forget that there’s a deeper core. I’ve said often that you do not have a porn problem, you have a pain problem. And so we, we have to stop the porn use to get to the pain, but that is what we’re after. We’re, we’re about healing wounds, not about managing behaviors. When we get to do that, then we get all the way upstream to relational intimacy as we were designed to create, to experience it. And that we haven’t, most of us have not really truly experienced what real intimacy feels like, looks like. And so that’s exciting, right? That’s, that’s the opposite of addiction, right? Is is deep connection.

Fight The New Drug (00:45:39):
That was a really wonderful segue because I do wanna ask you maybe Matthew, let’s start with you. How did you start rebuilding trust in your relationships throughout this process of recovery?

Mathew (00:45:52):
This is a tough one because, you know, for me I kind of came back on this journey by myself and jumped in, you know, I had disclosed previously to my wife 20 years ago that I had a problem with this. And we worked through it for about a year, but I really never had a lot of success. And to be honest, I, I wasn’t able to, you know, to to be truthful with her for those years and, and tell her that, look, the problem didn’t go away. I, and I was so stuck in the shame cycle that I just couldn’t, I couldn’t bring myself to, to, to share that. And it was so hard because I, I, I wanted to, but I, I didn’t wanna hurt her because I, I, I didn’t know how to get over it. I didn’t know how to be free.

(00:46:56):
I thought it’s just gonna hurt her every time I relapse. And I was, that, that to me was so hard. And I finally got the courage, you know, to, to come to her. And, and, and once I started seeing like healing is possible, like, okay, and that brought, that gave me the courage to, to go to her and do a full disclosure. And it was so scary to, to do that. Because I mean, it, I’d been lying to her for 19 years and that was really hard on her to be able to take that. And it took a while for her to wrap her head around what just got thrown at her. I mean, I had been dealing with this for those all those years and working through it and now getting to a better spot. And now she’s like, just finding out about it.

(00:47:48):
And it was really, really hard. And it was a whole new journey beginning that day as we were working through this. And it hasn’t been easy, but the more we’ve talked and, and worked through it, it it’s, it’s, our relationship has grown to a level that I honestly never thought was possible. It has been so beautiful because I never experienced that level of connection with my wife that I have had since that day. And I know it just gives me, it gave me so much hope for the future and so much excitement to see like, wow, this is where our relationship could really go. That, and, and even before I disclosed this to her, she even admitted to me, she’s like, something’s changing in you. Like, what is, what is different about you? And it wasn’t until I disclosed that she just like, oh, that makes so much sense,, you know, and she could see, and, and it honestly, it gave her hope too because she was frustrated with me for years of, obviously we didn’t have the best connection because of, you know, this, this problem that was in my life that wasn’t allowing me to create this higher level of connection.

(00:49:16):
I had my, you know, my brain was on porn and I wasn’t my true self. And with her seeing that this, that old me wasn’t really me, Matthew was somebody else, and it’s so much better. And she, she got new hope for our relationship just as I had new hope. And that has just fueled a fire of, of, of love that we didn’t know was possible. And so I’m just so grateful for this whole experience because of that. And I’m hopeful for the future, you know, and it’s, and it’s, and that’s just exciting. So I just wanna share that with everyone, that there’s, you know, it’s hard, you gotta lean in, but there is so much good on the other side of being vulnerable and truthful and yeah,

Fight The New Drug (00:50:11):
Thank you so much for sharing that, Matthew. I think it is something that is so scary for so many people to consider approaching a partner to discuss this. And to hear that in your experience, you’re now experiencing a deeper level of connection, I do think is so encouraging for so many people. Dayne, if we could jump to you, if you’re willing to share how you’ve gone about rebuilding trust or starting to rebuild trust in your relationships through this process.

Dayne (00:50:39):
Yeah. I would echo what Matthew said, like all of that is just so right on. But I wanna, I wanna say something else to that as well. Like I went through kind of a similar process and my wife and I are closer than I’ve ever realized possible. And a lot of credit goes to her for grace. I mean, there’s a lot there because I think one thing he didn’t mention, which I’m sure is true for his situation, is like now in the position I’m in, looking back, I didn’t know if we were gonna stay together. So I think some people see these stories like this and they look at it and they think, oh, you and your wife are together, you’re on the other side. That’s amazing. My, we may not get there. Well, you have to think back when we were, when Matthew was at this spot, I’m sure.

(00:51:21):
And when I was at this spot, there was no guarantee that I was gonna be here. She had every right to leave and go a hundred percent. And it’s from her grace that she’s still like extending to me which is not taken for granted for sure. And so, but that’s built, we’ve built a lot over these past 245 days for us that hasn’t been built for before. And a lot of that stems from me again, that undisclosed secrets just being like, I have to face that this is painful. I have to face that my paths are going down this path of destruction and hiding that couldn’t end in whatever, I don’t know, probably divorce or something. I don’t the path it was dark. Or I can take this other path and disclose these things and be honest with my wife, which you should be anyway, come on, be honest with my wife and expose this stuff and start moving towards healing.

(00:52:17):
And then she gets to choose what she’s going to do with that. I can’t choose for her. What I can decide is to know that it’s unknown and it’s scary and it’s difficult, but it’s what, where truth is, it’s where an abundant life is for me. ’cause this was not, ’cause like, like Chris has said, like, you don’t have a a this addiction problem. You have a pain problem or however deep it goes. And I know mine goes deep and I realized that as I started un unraveling layers. But I, I got to where I don’t say like, I don’t wanna be free of addiction. I want to be living an abundant life. That’s what I want. That’s my goal. And part of that is the path of leaving addiction behind and leaving pornography behind. And part of that’s going through some hard times where I’m gonna have to step into things where, where you say it like, we’re rebuilding trust.

(00:52:58):
Well, that’s like the second step. To me, the first step is stepping into that to even know if the trust is going to be able to be there. And I have to step into that first. And so I think a lot of times people skip that when they hear these stories because they think like, how do I rebuild trust? Well, you gotta step back and realize that you’re not gonna have it at first, and you’ve gotta just step into it anyway. So that was a big thing for me is just getting to that point again, that mindset shift of just saying like, okay, I, I have to step into all of this and just do it and I’m not gonna be in control. I don’t know where it’s gonna go, but I know the other way and I’ve been living in it for 30 years and I can’t do that anymore. So that’s kind of how, how it’s been for me. And so, yeah.

Fight The New Drug (00:53:34):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think similarly to as Chris mentioned, this is an addiction that forms over many years. It’s not going to go away overnight. If the breakdown of trust also happens over many years, you, it’s not going to be rebuilt overnight either. And so I think it’s important to hear from both of you and hear that even though you are in a space now that is so encouraging there is a process to get to that space and to continue from the place that you’re in now in rebuilding that trust as well. So thank you both for sharing that. Chandler or Chris do you have anything you would like to add to that?

Chris (00:54:10):
I would just say that to your point, Dan courage never feels courageous in the moment, right? It just feels terrifying. So that’s what I connect with in that.

Chandler (00:54:21):
Yeah. And the, the other thing I’ll share, ’cause I’ve, I’ve gotten a little bit of a behind the scenes view for both of these guys for Dana, Matthew and their journeys. I can, I can share that it hasn’t been linear from my perspective. Like there’s still days, you know, that it seems like, you know, it, there’s progress, but then there’s still paint. And so that, that rebuilding process in the relationship is a, gonna look different for every single couple out there or every single relationship. But b, it’s not, not necessarily going to just be up into the right, you know, a linear graph. And like Dana emphasized, like it, we’re dealing with two people here and the person that was hurt, betrayed, wounded like they need to figure out their own healing path too. And that’s gonna look different and, and have a different timeline for every person.

(00:55:07):
And so I can, I can see what, what I’ve noticed from these guys and others, like learning emotional skills, like how to not get defensive when that pain is hard for them, but you’re feeling like you’re doing way better now because you are being a trustworthy person. And, and you’re, you’re, you’re starting to do those things, but you know, they’re still looking at you like that person that you were, that you’ve already started to change away from. And the ability to not react, to not, you know, get sucked back into that place, I think is very difficult. I’ve experienced that. I still experience that with my wife where like, you know, we’ve evolved and grown in our healing journey around my recovery story together, but there’s still these moments where like, I’m having to practice these basic like, emotional skills of being able to listen to attune to her needs and to realize that it’s okay for her to feel lack of trust or pain, you know, as a result of the history in this current moment. It doesn’t mean that’s how she’s gonna feel tomorrow. Like, I have to be able to show up for her in the, in the moment. And that’s, these are skills again that most of us didn’t learn growing up that benefit us not just in a romantic relationship, but in, in all aspects of our life.

Chris (00:56:16):
I might piggyback on that. I, I love that’s so powerful. And as we’re talking about our partners, our spouses you know, betrayed partners are I think some of the, the most courageous and and resilient people in, in the world. I mean, to go through this kind of trauma is just agonizing because you, we, you know, we, we entered into a committed relationship. They entered into a committed relationship with us signing up for Prince Charming, and, and they got, you know, frog or whatever. So it’s, it is just, it’s, it doesn’t even do it justice, I’m sorry, but it’s just brutal. And so it’s been said that we, a lot of times we come into recovery, that pain pushes us into recovery. But that hope and love pull us forward in recovery. And so I think the sooner we can have those experiences of, of experiencing love and grace from our wife, it’s like, wow, that’s, that’s what love feels like.

(00:57:04):
And again, we don’t get that until we’re courageous enough to, and willing to just be honest. And we, and we risk losing it all. That is terrifying. And, and, and yet you guys took that step and, and you experienced a little glimpse of that. You experienced it in relay, you’ve continued to experience it. It’s like, man, that as I listen to your stories, I just, I just can’t stop smiling. ’cause I’m like, man, that is, that’s it, right? This again, like this is so much bigger than just not doing bad behavior. So I’m, I’m excited for you guys.

Fight The New Drug (00:57:31):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And Chris, maybe actually we could start with you. I wanna talk a little bit about for all of you who have been in recovery, how your view of yourself has evolved through this recovery process. But Chris, I wanna start with you. Just noting for someone who maybe isn’t in a relationship right now, but is still looking to pursue recovery, who maybe doesn’t have that hope or that love or that relationship to pull them forward in, in some of the ways that we’ve kind of addressed what advice would you give to them in starting with themselves and in starting with that relationship with themselves as they pursue recovery?

Chris (00:58:08):
I just wanna say like that I’m so thankful in some ways for as much damage as the internet has done, it is also such a gift that, like for instance, you guys are doing podcasts like this and you’re, you’re spreading this message and, and it’s giving clarity and, and perspective, I think to younger people so that they don’t have to go through, I don’t know how ma how old Matthew and Dana are, and I’m not gonna try and guess ’cause I don’t wanna, you know, the image, our relationship. But you know, for a lot of us, you know, I’m in my forties, it’s like we didn’t, we didn’t have any, like anyone helping us understand the impacts of this and the long-term damage of this. And so to be able to see that earlier on and to know like, okay, this is what’s coming if I keep going down this road.

(00:58:49):
Now, the tragic reality is that sometimes, as my supervisor used to say, sometimes people just have to swim with the sharks and get more bloody before they are willing to get in the boat. You know, the, the truth is that sometimes we have to go through a lot of pain ourselves in order to be willing to finally just surrender and say, okay, like, I can’t do this on my own anymore. I need help. But, you know, God willing, I’m, I’m deeply hoping that there’s this, I’m seeing men and women come in younger and younger saying, Hey, I, I already see the data points showing up and I don’t want to go down this path and, and, and I need help. And that is so exciting because again, you’re, you’re, you’re intervening when the brain is still young and developing. And so you’re not pouring gas on that fire for a couple more decades before you finally realize, you know, scorched earth, your life is in ruins and you gotta, like, now you have no choice but to get help.

(00:59:36):
So I would just say the sooner the better and, and just, you know, my hope would be that just go all in, like whatever it takes. Like, I don’t think you can go too overboard on this. You know, ask for help seek out resources. Again, I’m just, I’m thankful for resources like this. I’m thankful to be a part of it. It’s an honor. The one other thing that came up as you guys were sharing that we just haven’t touched on is it’s just the power of gratitude. I heard that from you guys, Matthew and Dana, as you were talking about just the gift of grace from your wives. And, and that is such a, a, a powerful driving force as well for changes. Like, man, I, I have so much to be grateful for today. And again, the core of that is, is really rooted in love, which again, is kind of our, our big why of like, why we want to, to heal and, and change.

Fight The New Drug (01:00:16):
Yeah. Thank you Chris. Dayne, maybe we can start with you. How has your view of yourself evolved through your recovery process?

Dayne (01:00:24):
Oh, man, I, it’s, it has a lot. So I, I would, I would look at myself and I used to think that I was pretty introverted. I still think like I have like those tendencies a little bit, but it was masked by this idea that I was trying to, like, social events came, became so taxing on me because I was trying to manage my persona in so many different people. And I’m trying to manage this addiction and I’m trying to show that we’re the perfect family and I’m internally just having these battles. I think, I think that’s the big thing. My perception of myself has changed to be more free and relaxed because I’m not handling this internal bat battles all the time. I’m not constantly on go of trying to be defensive of everything about me. And so that’s been a big change.

(01:01:11):
So, so just being honest, being vulnerable, being real, those are things that I’m stepping into and, and it’s different for me to, to do actively. And one of the big things that I’ve, that I’ve been trying to do and and want to do is, as I think back to where I am now and where I was, there was a lot of times like having lived in that spot of addiction, I know how a lot of these people think. I mean, I, I’m not an expert in recovery, but I, I’ve definitely got a PhD in doing this stuff for 30 years, right? So I know the, I just know instinctively how these guys feel. And so what I’ve been trying to be is like, I wanna speak that voice that I needed to hear that wasn’t being said to me when those opportunities arise.

(01:01:49):
So that’s kind of like a mantra for me now is like, when I’m in situations or in community, whether it’s relay, whether it’s wherever it is, I’m going to say those things that I may not normally say in the past or, or not in like my personality type, but I’m going to say them because I, I can recognize something where someone needs to hear something and I’m gonna speak it. So those are big things that have been changing for me and just, yeah, connection with my wife and just with my kids. There’s a lot of times where, man, I just, and this has been a driving motivator for me, is like staying away from just getting back into that stuff is like, I’ve missed so much life with my kids and my wife because of this addiction. It has stolen so much from me that I cannot get back. I cannot get that back. It’s gone. And so if you want to something to drive you away from this stuff, get that in perspective. Go through how much life you’ve lost that has taken away that, that I, that I’ve missed. And so those things have kind of shaped how I perceive myself and view myself and how I’m gonna react to things and do things and have been moving forward.

Fight The New Drug (01:02:49):
Thank you for sharing that. Matthew, how about for you?

Mathew (01:02:52):
Yeah, so I love what Dayne said. It’s so true. I, I just have this, this whole journey has made it so I have this hope now that I didn’t have before. And I want others to feel that same hope that I didn’t have for so long. And it’s, it’s changed the way I interact, you know, with the team like I on, on, on Relay and, and everyone that is part of my journey. I, I’m not so much there engaging every day for myself anymore. It’s more for them and for everyone and just everyone’s benefit. And I, I enjoy, you know, it is just trying to help others. And that’s, that’s, that’s what’s been my primary motivator in being willing to come on this podcast right now because this is hard. You know, this is difficult to, to agree to do this. And, you know, my first podcast and a lot of people out there, like, I’m thinking to myself, oh, they know me.

(01:04:00):
You know, they’re probably not watching this podcast maybe, but if they are, you know it’s, that’s scary. But I, my desire to help others and the thought that somebody could benefit from this is, is, is worth it to lean in and I want to help my team whatever I can do to encourage them and share the, the, the tools that have been successful for me and what has allowed me to find this along the way. What I’ve, what I’ve seen is that I’m changing, you know, my wife saw the changes, she saw the changes in me early on, but the, the shame that I felt, so that’s the biggest difference for me. Like, I had been plagued by this shame for so long, and as I worked on sharing and coming out, and it’s like the shame has melted away, and I just feel so much better about myself that I don’t have to loathe that part of me that I, I hated for so long. And I finally to the point where I can be free of that shame. And it’s, that is just amazing. And that has been the primary thing that has helped me along this process to, to free myself of that shame. And it has allowed me to heal. It just helped me so much. And I feel more confident in myself, more like I just have more worth that I didn’t I that I didn’t have before. So I just wanted to convey that.

Chris (01:05:37):
Matt, I just wanna highlight that what you just did was was a step through shame, right? Into vulnerability and that, so like for those who are watching the podcast, like right now, real time, like this is how the shame melts away, right? It doesn’t just happen like you are taking a bold, courageous step to let yourself be more fully seen and known to the world and, and you’re go and you receive love, right? I feel nothing but like deep admiration and love for you, and I know that people listening feel the same. And so that is just such a powerful experience. You know, I had a mentor early on say, you wakes up every morning and asks, how can I do violence to evil today? And I know it’s kind of a weird twisted way to think about, but what you just did was violence to evil, violence to that shame that has kept you stuck for so long and destroyed so much of your life. It’s like, no, I’m not letting that continue to have a foothold and stepping through that. So I just want to say way to go, man. That was awesome.

Fight The New Drug (01:06:31):
Yeah, and I think just to reinforce, I mean, the fact that you’re all on this podcast right now, speaking to these experiences is a very real example of you actively working on everything you’ve shared so far on, on disclosing this information, on not hiding behind these secrets, on being vulnerable and being transparent and doing the work and taking these steps. And, and I do just wanna reinforce that I know for, for many people listening especially those who can relate to the experiences that you’ve both had and those who are maybe haven’t begun a recovery journey yet, but, but want to hearing your stories will only help. And so I wanna thank you for your courage and, and willingness to show up in this way and, and to know that you’re facing the thing that is scary. Once again, as you’ve mentioned, you know, was kind of a, a beginning stage of this for both of you. So Chandler, while we’re here, do you have any success stories from Relay that you’d like to share? and then because Relay is a group model maybe the rest of you also have success stories you’d like to share as well, that, that our listeners might find some encouragement in.

Chandler (01:07:41):
I mean, I still remember both Dan and Matthew’s like very first meeting they attended, like when I met them. Like, these guys are like some of the stories that I genuinely think about, like when I’m going to sleep at night, and I’m just, I feel like I learned from them. And yeah, there’s a couple other stories of people that come to mind. One guy who, who we’re friends with is in one of our groups together. He shared this last week at a meeting, just this feeling, and I’m kind of paraphrasing, but he was describing in the deepest point of his addiction, feeling almost dead. Feeling like he wasn’t really living and describing the shift and feeling like like he is truly living now, that he didn’t really ever know himself before this. And for the first time, he is actually getting to know the real him.

(01:08:30):
And I just thought that that was so powerful to hear from him. He’s got quite a bit of sobriety as well. But for me, that’s not as, as cool as hearing that shift in how miserable he felt for for so many years and feeling like he’s truly living now, whether you’re in a relationship or not, you know, whatever your career, your job, your, your life looks like. Just that shift internally I think is the most beautiful thing that, that I’ve seen in people’s stories. There was a, a female user, and I just wanna mention like, this isn’t just a, a problem for men. Like we do have plenty of women that come through our community. And, and I’ve had the chance to interact with a few of them. And, and one of them told me like, I felt like literally I was the only woman who struggled with this.

(01:09:12):
And the shame it feels like, you know, for the women especially, is even deeper or just magnified. And she shared just the feeling of being able to, to surround herself with community. She shared like before, you know, joining community and getting help, like she wasn’t able to get past one or two weeks without pornography and, and joining Relay, she was able to make it a few months. You know, once she decided like, I’m gonna surround myself with these people. But again, just the beauty in her realizing like for so long she felt like there was nobody. And, and then having that shift and realizing you’re not alone, it could been some really cool stories.

Fight The New Drug (01:09:49):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Does anyone else have any success stories you’ve experienced along your journeys that you’d like to share?

Dayne (01:09:57):
I, this is Dayne. I can speak to one or, or just kind of an idea. It’s more, more not a success story for an individual person, but one of the things that we’ll do, like we have like Zoom or like video meetings we do through Relay with our groups. And one of the things we’ll say is, or I say I won’t put this on everyone else, is that like, my heroes are the ones that just came in after they relapsed and they’re back in a meeting. And I’m just, ’cause I can feel where they are. ’cause I mean, I’m 200 something days out of this, but I know in a heartbeat what it feels like to be there. And so just the power and the courage to step in to come to that meeting, a video meeting the next day. But so I guess the success story around that would be a number of these guys kept doing that.

(01:10:39):
And so some of those guys are further in recovery now, and that’s not their story anymore. So the success story to me is that even though they had relapses that were happening and they were already a part of the community that we have, and they were still cycling, they didn’t just throw their hands up and just give up. They said, I’m gonna lean in harder. I’m gonna come into those groups. And so what is my job to do there again, like, I’m gonna be that person that I needed. I’m going to encourage them. I’m gonna say how great it is that they’re there. I’m gonna emphasize that ’cause I want them to come back. I want them to be a part of it. And we’ve got, I, we’ve got so much in the community, there’s people that have, that has been their story and now they’re doing amazing. And and so I just want that to be an encouragement that it doesn’t matter where you at, where you’re at or what you’ve done before, even to the hours before. I mean, you just need to step into those things. So it’s cool to have those, those things happening within our community.

Chris (01:11:32):
I, I’ll just add from my experience, I mean, I’ve been doing the work for over 20 years. I primarily work from a group therapy model. So I do very little individual therapy these days. And I do a lot of groups. So I have 11 groups, 10, 10 men’s recovery groups and one women’s group. And so about a hundred, 10, 120 people a week. And I, I just, for over 20 years, I mean, I, I just, I tell people a lot, like if I didn’t experience what Matthew and D are describing, you know, on a weekly basis, I, I, I kind of joke, like I’d go drive a bread truck ’cause you know, this takes everything out of me. Like, it just requires all of me to show up. And if it was just that, and n none none of what you’re experiencing here today on the podcast, then it would be exhausting.

(01:12:13):
But this is, this is the power and the beauty of, of transformation, of recovery, of healing, of change, of connection, of love. And I, the twice a year, I, we, I get pulled the, the groups together for an in-person, three day intensive. And the last one we had, we’re having one next week actually. And, and I’m really excited about that. But the last one we did was in San Diego and there was a, a gentleman there that was all just tatted up and, you know, just rockstar kind of guy, tough guy. And he’s been in recovery for, you know, maybe six months to six months. And he, he, the last day, he’s just, he’s overwhelmed in tears. And he just said like, I didn’t know that love was a real thing. I thought it was something that Disney sold to the world. And everyone kind of like pretended like it was a thing. But he is like, like, I’m like, I can’t not get emotional telling these stories, but it’s like, like I feel it. Like I, now I know what this is supposed to be like, right? It’s like, dude, that is, that is it. That’s what we’re chasing after. So

Fight The New Drug (01:13:09):
Thank you all. Something so interesting is typically by the end of a podcast episode, I have to ask, you know, where is the hope? Where what, what hope can you give to people? And something I love so much about this panel that’s been such an honor to get to hear from each of you and speak with you is that I’ve just felt hope the entire time and encouragement the entire time. And I’m sure our listeners have as well. But I do wanna give each of you a moment if there’s anything else you haven’t shared that you would like to share or you would like to touch on before we end this panel today. I would love to give you a moment to do that. So Chandler, why don’t we go ahead and start with you

Chandler (01:13:51):
Again. I think anyone listening to this like that finds themself in this spot of pain or struggle. If you can relate to whatever’s been shared today, even, even in a small way, like, I want you to know that you are seen, like even if we’re not talking to you, one-on-one right now, like I wish I could, I I wish that we could because I know how much it sucks to be alone in the dark for so long. And hopefully, you know, some, some of what we said today might encourage you that there is the possibility of being able to step into the light and it probably will be uncomfortable. You probably will have to surrender control like has been said, I, I think it’s not supposed to feel easy. But I think again, if we look at this like an iceberg, where the tip of the iceberg is, is the pornography problem, if we’re still here struggling, if you’re listening to this and like, man, I’ve tried everything.

(01:14:48):
All it means is that there’s some part of that iceberg underneath the surface that we haven’t figured out some part of your story that we need to go discover some, some pain that we need to get to the root of. And that’s just one analogy that’s helped me realize like even if I do feel like I’ve been working hard, if I have been putting myself out there, like have patience realize that it is a process of healing more than it is about trying to win this battle of sobriety and quitting. And so that’s my maybe final piece of advice is to try to shift away from thinking about this as a quitting journey and look at this really as a decision to embark on a deeper healing journey.

Fight The New Drug (01:15:31):
Thank you so much. Matthew, is there anything else you would like to share with our listeners today?

Mathew (01:15:37):
Yeah I, I would just say, you know, if you’re struggling with this, don’t give up. There’s hope. I was lost. I was hopeless. I thought there was no way out, but I have, I have begun to feel true healing. And these shifts that Chandler talked about, they’re real, they have, I’ve experienced these shifts and I know I’m not at three or five years, but I feel like a different man and I am so grateful for this, and I just know that you can experience the same thing too. And I I just hope that you would not give up and, and step into the uncomfortable and you can find similar healing that we’ve been able to find.

Fight The New Drug (01:16:32):
Thank you so much. Matthew. Dayne, how about for you?

Dayne (01:16:36):
Yeah, I would echo kind of what Chandler was saying. I mean, I, something that resonated with me through that was like the healing, healing journey idea. Like it’s a healing journey. One of the things I was stuck in when I was doing cycles was this idea that even if I can get to sobriety, am I going to have to be having this battle every day for the rest of my life? So I had this, this, this picture that sobriety was just fighting harder every day, and it was a constant battle. And that felt almost a, a different level of exhausting, right? so what I would wanna say to people is that in that broken state, you’re trying to picture something healthy and you can’t, you can’t do it. At least I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it. And so my perception was wrong. And so on the other side, I would speak back to you and say, it’s completely different than what you think Yes.

(01:17:27):
Is it’s still something you have to handle. Yes. Is it still, are there still struggles? Yes. Is the world still spinning around and throwing things at you? Yes. Like all these things are still happening, but the way you perceive them, it’s like you’re looking through a different window. And so the struggle isn’t what you think it is on this side, and that’s the most I can can explain it because I think it’s, there’s so many things in life where you can like, hear them, but until you experience them, you don’t know what it is. So I’m hoping that’s the enough mo motivation to push people to like, I gotta experience this. ’cause I don’t know. ’cause for me, for the longest time, again, that struggle was like, if, if, if, if these, if sobriety is just this cycle doing it harder, then I’m in trouble because I don’t have the strength to do it now. And, and I just want to, that’s a myth, it’s not real. So I would just, that’s what I want, would want people to hear is just that there is, that healing journey really is truly a healing journey. And I’ll emphasize the healing part of that in that journey that’s happening. It, it gets good. It’s good. And so just to step into that,

Fight The New Drug (01:18:24):
That’s so well said. Thank you. And Chris, any final words from you?

Chris (01:18:28):
I don’t think words are needed, honestly. I, I think what you feel from Matthew and Dayne, this is, I mean, to your point, Dayne, I, I don’t hear struggle in your voice. I mean, I hear, I hear a fight, I hear courage. I hear, I hear, you know, doing some, taking some courageous, incredible steps. But I mean, what you feel, you as the listeners feel with Matthew and Dayne like that, this is it. So I, I think that is, that’s what we’re after. That’s what the experience is. I think that, I think that sells itself, right? I mean, so nobody wants to stay in pain. We all want to experience more peace and love, and it’s like, okay, well here, here’s a path. So,

Chandler (01:19:03):
And we’re in it together. That’s the biggest thing I come back to is like, we weren’t designed to go through these hard things alone. We can walk the path together.

Fight The New Drug (01:19:11):
Thank you all Chandler, for anyone who is interested in checking out Relay can you let our listeners know where to go what to expect?

Chandler (01:19:21):
Yeah, I mean, for anyone that that wants to join Relay, like if you come, come into the community, number one, you don’t have to join the live meetings, you can just start with the Matthew called it like discussion board. Like it’s a group chat. Like you don’t have to show your face if you’re not ready. If you do join the meetings, like the three of us are actually on these meetings. Me, Matthew, Dayne quite frequently. You probably actually will meet us. And so I just wanna say like, we’d love to meet you and come, come be a part of it. You can you can go to our website, which is www.joinrelay.app. And especially for right now, you know, as, as we’re nearing the end of the year and we start thinking about goals and, and really trying to do things differently, I think there’s no better time to jump into communities.

(01:20:03):
So when you sign up, we’ll help match you with the team and a group that is a good fit. You with other people who have a similar goal that are in a similar spot. And then when you come in to the program, there’s content that will help you be able to work on how do you actually heal the brain? How do you understand how deep this goes? And actually under undertand the pieces that have been missing. But I think we’ve covered a lot of the biggest pieces in, in joining Relay. It’s just starting to walk the path together. So you’ll get a lot of tools and guidance and we hope to see you there.

Fight The New Drug (01:20:36):
Thank you so much and thank you all for making time to join me today. It was such an honor for me to get to hear from each of you and have this conversation. And I know there’s so much value in, in everything that everyone just said, and I’m so excited for our listeners to be able to hear that. But Matthew and Dayne, I specifically wanna commend you for taking this step in your journey and in sharing your stories in such a bold way. If you’re listening, you can’t see the physical celebrations that Chris and Chandler just had but we are all there’s. So I hope you take a moment to just be so proud of yourselves and, and really acknowledge what this step is. And I know this will help so many others. So thank you for your willingness to do this. I can’t wait for our listeners to hear this conversation.

Promotional (01:21:34):
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(01:22:14):
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Outro (01:23:08):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science facts and personal accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and believing a review. Consider Before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support, Consider Before Consuming, you can make a one-time or recurring donation of any amount at ftnd.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness. Look both ways. Check your blind spots and consider before consuming.