Intro (00:10):
In today’s episode, we reconnect with Sathiya Sam, founder of Deep Clean, and author of The Last Relapse, Sathiya’s Journey to Recovery. From a 15 year pornography addiction shaped his passion for helping others find freedom. Through his roots based recovery approach, he empowers individuals to address the underlying causes of compulsive behaviors, rather than focusing solely on surface level solutions. In this conversation, we explore transformative concepts like healing, past wounds, and redefining identity. Sathiya shares inspiring success stories, practical advice for parents and individuals, and his vision for how recovery can strengthen relationships. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (00:56):
Well, Sathiya, I thank you so much for making some time for us. Again, we haven’t seen you since, I believe it was 2019. You were last on the Consider Before Consuming podcast. So for any of our listeners who have joined since then, can you introduce yourself to them and tell us all a little bit about who you are?

Sathiya (01:14):
Yeah, well, for starters, thanks for having me here, Natalie and man, I really enjoyed my interview with Garrett. That was, I think, I think we actually recorded it in 2018 and then took Yeah, I You’re right to get released. Yeah, so so really cool to be back and amazing to see how you guys have grown and continue to just impact so many people. A little bit of background about me. I was addicted to pornography for 15 years. I was the person who you would think never would’ve have been addicted, grew up in a pastor’s home, went to Christian schools, was really quite protected the way I grew up. I didn’t have this huge trauma history or any predispositions really that way, but my story I found out as I was struggling, it was actually not uncommon. There were a lot of people like me who got exposed at a young age, got kind of hooked on it in high school, and by the time they’re early and mid adults just have no idea how to shake this thing.

(02:06):
So that was my story as well. And I had this little thing in my heart, which was, if I could actually figure this out, I will do everything in my power to help as many other people as possible figure it out as well. And that was almost a little bit of a faint wish, like, it’s a nice thing to say. But February, 2016, I had my last relapse, and I was about two and a half years into really enjoying what I call freedom. I make a distinction between that and sobriety. And it was during that time that I felt, okay, I think I need to start doing something a bit more public facing, helping other people. So that began the launch of Deep Clean at the end of 2018, early 2019 right around the time that I would’ve met Garrett, and we would’ve recorded that interview. And in the last five years since then, we’ve served thousands of men. We’ve really been able to grow an audience reached a lot of people, and you know, raising awareness about the harmful effects of pornography for sure. And also showing people, Hey, this is possible. Like this is not just for the elect. We’re seeing young and old, rich and poor, different walks of life experience, full recovery. And if we can do it, you can do it too.

Fight The New Drug (03:10):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, and let me just say congratulations on your journey toward freedom and recovery, and also thank you for all of your work to help others. We will talk a little bit more about your work and let people know where they can go if they’re looking for resources like yours at the end of this podcast. But as we kind of dive in I wanna talk a little bit about, you’ve mentioned that your journey to recovery has involved deep self-exploration. What recent practices or techniques have you found especially impactful for your own healing?

Sathiya (03:41):
So we work with men exclusively, and I, I think this whole conversation is very, very relevant for men in our day and age, because the one thing that we’ve kind of established is that we’re a little bit oblivious. Like we’re a little bit blind to what’s going on in our inner life. And part of it is some of the male stereotypes and messaging. But I think if I was to be a little bit more objective, it’s just a lack of skills. It’s a lack of skill building. I was never really taught how to understand your inner life, what’s going on. And when I say inner life, I’m not even just talking about the emotions part. I think that part gets a lot of press. But even really understanding your thoughts and learning how to process what’s going on. And so in my own recovery journey, the, the one thing I realized a couple years in is I’ve reduced recovery to the next time I’m tempted.

(04:25):
I hope I make a good choice, is very reactionary, very high stakes, and really all the odds are stacked against you to actually make a good decision by the time it reaches that boiling point. And the, the self-awareness journey for me was trying to get upstream, trying to get ahead of this thing so that when I am stressed or I’m overwhelmed or I’m feeling insecure, figuring out how do I process this and manage it effectively now so that it doesn’t blossom and develop into something worse that eventually leads to me being caught between a rock and a hard place. So that looked like journaling when I started out in recovery. And to this day, Natalie, it still looks like journaling, honestly. It’s the one thing I swear by. I just think it’s so powerful and effective. We kinda have our own method, but it doesn’t have to be that it, it just, journaling is such a great way to process.

(05:14):
And for guys who are struggling alone, they don’t, like, nobody knows and they feel like they’re the only person. I was definitely that person, but I also had a lot of shame, fear of being found out. How do people see me? All of those kinds of insecurities, journaling was just a great way to get started. I could be raw and honest with myself, and there was no risk of being found out. Nobody’s reading my journal. So that’s been a really helpful process over the years. And I think the other thing when you do get a little bit more advanced in recovery is talking to other people, finding those safe places where you can talk and not be judged. And something about that is very healing. It, it really brings clarity to the inner life, but it’s also very des shaming, you know, to be able to say, this is what I’m feeling. I was tempted by this, I’m struggling with that. And to not be judged and to have another person looking in the eyes treat you with value and respect goes a very, very long way for building that awareness in a effective way.

Fight The New Drug (06:06):
Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, we talk about shame in this topic hand in hand. So often it’s something that we know from research, shame only fuels a a compulsive habit more often than not, whereas it, it’s not necessarily a healthy motivator. So finding some ways to break through that shame, which we’ll talk about a little bit more in a minute as well. And then having that self-exploration, really being able to understand yourself, to understand your triggers, to understand you know, where you’re starting at is the best way to kind of figure out where you’re going. So I love that advice. And for anyone listening who might be in this same place maybe try journaling and we’ll talk a little bit more about what your methods for that are as well. In your coaching, you focus on addressing root causes rather than just symptoms. Can you share with our listeners some of the root causes of your own past compulsive porn use and the process of working through those, what that looked like for you?

Sathiya (07:06):
Yeah, for sure. I’ll, I’ll contextualize this a little bit just so people understand what we’re talking about. You know, if you were to remove a weed from your lawn, you really have two options. One is you can run over that sucker with a lawnmower and everything looks pretty good. It was relatively easy, didn’t cost you a lot. And a couple days, couple weeks later, at some point it’s gonna grow back because the root system is there. And for, for somebody who grew up, again with more of a faith background, a lot of the messaging that we got to recover and to actually experience some sort of healing in this area was more or less a lawnmower approach. Slap on an internet filter, muster up the courage up, your willpower, your disciplines, it, it’s all along that line. And it’s not that those things are bad per se, it’s just that if we wanna see any long-term change, we have to get more to the roots.

(07:54):
So that’s what I’m talking about when I say we have a roots based approach we found, and, and a lot of, a lot of what I say when I say we, you know, I’m talking about a team, I’m talking about the clients, but I was patient zero, so I’m also talking about me. So what we found is that the most roots fall into three areas. So one is actually what we were just discussing. It’s a lack of self-awareness. The second would be trauma or I would actually broaden it a little bit and just say things from the past areas in our hearts that need more attention. And the third would be faulty belief systems. And pornography does in, in of itself, convey a lot of damaging beliefs about our bodies, about our sense of identity, about what it looks like to be a man, or what it means to be a woman.

(08:35):
And, and everything in between. And I think additionally, when you struggle with something for long periods of time, it can really start to erode yourself esteem. So I had all of these, and I would say the self-awareness bit we just talked about, talked about a little bit. I was very numb and I built that awareness through journaling. The identity piece was not something that I worked on a lot until later on in my recovery. And I think a lot of people try to get in front of the mirror and speak their positive affirmations and get that identity shifted. And I, I, for me, it just didn’t work. I just, I wasn’t buying it. You know, you, you can say the things, but it doesn’t mean you believe it. It’s really that second bucket I mentioned. It’s the hard part, the, the, the trauma part.

(09:15):
That’s where I really experienced the most breakthrough. And I’ll, I’ll keep the story, the story short, but one of the big, big things for me, big discoveries, was that I had grown up, and again, I grew up in a really good home, very stable and safe environment. But I grew up with this sense of neglect, especially from my mother. My mom’s an amazing woman, but a more reserved, timid kind of personality. And she didn’t really express love in a way that I needed it growing up. And I, I didn’t really have that thought ever when I was young. I never felt neglected. You know, I had a shirt on my back and food on the table and all that good stuff. But as I was going deeper into recovery, I realized that because I felt this sense of neglect or, you know, unloved by my mom, I naturally just acted out when I started to develop in my adolescent years to pursue pornography, to chase girls.

(10:02):
And it was all very sexually driven, ultimately, to get that sense of affirmation and affection from a substitute of my maternal figure. And as I was processing this, I still actually remember the day, the day that I was processing this with a professional. I was talking to, I, I believe it was a therapist. And the, they’re just walking me through the process. And at the end they kind of asked me like, well, what do you wanna do with this? And I said, well, I think, I think I want to, I wanna forgive my mom. Like I, I don’t wanna hold this against her. You know, I want, I wanna release her, and I, I wanna move on. Like, I don’t wanna have this thing burdening me anymore. And so we went through this very simple process and, you know, Natalie, for most of recovery, like it was about five years from start to finish, most of it was, I got 1% better every single day.

(10:42):
You know, it’s just very incremental. And you look back six months and you go, wow, you know, we’ve really gone somewhere. This was one of those few moments where I stepped out and I felt a tangible difference. It’s like something had shifted in me. And it’s not that I was never tempted again, but the next time I was tempted, the poll wasn’t there the same way it was before. I was in way more control. And these kinds of stories are things that we hear now in our community all the time, because I think this part’s been overlooked. I, i, with guys especially, we kind of we’re kind of like, why trauma? I don’t have trauma. I had a good upbringing, or, why do I need to explore my past? I don’t understand how it’s connected. But I think when you understand that there’s roots, there’s causal elements that go beyond what the eye can actually see, it opens up this whole new world of healing and growth and opportunity to really change things at a heart level so that you can change your behavior long term.

Fight The New Drug (11:33):
Yeah. And thank you for sharing that. I think there’s so much power in the vulnerability of understanding someone else’s journey through something to be able to, for so many of us, identify what we are experiencing. Can you speak a little bit to how this approach has changed the outcomes of your clients who are maybe experiencing something along their journey toward recovery?

Sathiya (11:56):
Yeah. Well, one of the things that we owe this podcast and the whole organization fight the new drug a lot of credit for, is just raising awareness of the harmful effects of pornography in society, in relationships, and obviously in the wellbeing of the individual. And the really cool thing for us is on the flip side, we know that pornography causes all this damage, but similarly, if you can really have a roots based approach and actually systemically change things, you can also experience healing and growth in all of these areas. And there’s, I mean, there’s a bunch. I mean, I can tell you about clients who go and start that business ’cause they finally have courage. Clients who are more active in their communities and they’re volunteering, whether it’s at church or something local, where they feel like they’re, they’re making a difference, and they don’t have to be afraid of being that hypocrite who’s doing a good thing in front of everybody.

(12:42):
But, you know, secretly behind closed doors is struggling. But the thing that I come back to again and again is the changes that we’re seeing in families. We’re seeing marriages being restored. You know, trust doesn’t get restored overnight. I don’t, I don’t wanna give the wrong impression, but I do believe that when when a guy in particular, you know, he’s struggling, it’s affected his marriage, it’s affected maybe his ability to be present with his kids and to raise his family when he kinda gets his head screwed on straight and he really tackles the roots and he’s walking in freedom, that’s where we seem to see the biggest change happens, because he’s more confident. He’s showing up differently in relationships. You know, the research even suggests that when you’re watching pornography, a a person’s capacity for empathy is reduced. And so when their capacity for empathy returns, they can connect on more of an emotional level.

(13:30):
all of those, those things start to improve. And I, I had this discovery probably about it was about 18 months ago where I was just reflecting on the outcomes that we were seeing the results. And I’m, I’m kind of looking and realizing, man, we’re not, this isn’t really about helping people quit pornography. It’s kind of a means to an end. This is actually about making the world a better place. ’cause these guys are becoming better contributors in their, their homes, which makes society a stable, more stable place, but they’re better contributors at work. They’re interacting with their colleagues with a lot more a lot more empathy, a lot more gentleness, a lot more openness. They’re better leaders. And obviously, you know, like I said, they’re volunteering in their communities. They’re making the world a better place. So we kind of coined this little phrase, if you change the demand, you change the world. And the, the whole premise there is that, that’s the idea is if you have a root based approach, literally everything in your life can change because you’re dealing with things at such a core level.

Fight The New Drug (14:23):
It’s really speaks to the power of this, right? If the, you get to the root of the thing that is causing you to utilize pornography as a coping mechanism, it’s likely also a root cause of other coping mechanisms in your life or other problems in your life or other areas of disconnection, right? So to be able to address that root cause, it makes perfect sense that you can see people start to flourish in so many areas of their lives. For someone who’s maybe going through this a little bit more alone or is feeling a little bit more isolated, do you have some advice on how they could build connection or grow community in, in this season of recovery for themselves if they don’t feel like that’s something they have?

Sathiya (15:04):
Yeah, that’s a really important question. We, we get asked this a lot as well, like on, on Instagram and elsewhere. I think people are looking for those outlets, but don’t always know where to go. So the first thing I would say is well done. Even just the fact that you’re asking the question says volumes about your character and your intents. And I think it’s really, really noble. The second thing I would say is start small. It, it doesn’t have to be this, this huge step. In fact, I, I actually discourage that for the most part. I think it’s good to start small, dip your toes a little bit. We talked about journaling earlier, and I think listening to shows like this where you can hear other stories and educate yourself, I think those are all really good starting points. Even just to, again, listening to a podcast is maybe not forming deep blasting connection, but it is something, and it, it is a way to get started on the journey.

(15:50):
I think eventually once you sort of warm up and go a little bit further down the road, the the next step would be to find somebody that you can talk to in person. And the question that I’ll always ask somebody is, who’s the person in your life that you could tell anything and they will not judge you? That might be, that might be someone like, maybe somebody strange comes to mind, like your grandma. Like, I don’t know if that’s quite the right person, but start to go down that thread of just, okay, it doesn’t have to be the logical thing. Like, I don’t know, like a leader or my parents or my best friend. Those people might not be the right people. They might not be the person that comes to mind when you think of the person who’s the safest to talk to without being judged.

(16:29):
But whoever that person is, that’s usually where I encourage people to start. And then the second thing I would say, and this is a huge shift even since I was last on the show, is there’s tons of communities online now, I know you guys have your own community as well that you’re building. There’s lots of places you can plug in and where you feel like like you feel home, you feel welcome, you feel like, okay, I can have a place here. I think that’s, those are the places that you wanna really start to plug into more and maybe take that leap of faith. Like for us in particular, we’ve, we’ve been the most effective with men. You know, 25 to 35, 25 to 45, that age range professional careers. That just seems to be where, where the we’re the most effective. And so the community we’ve built as a result is very close knit because they’re going through similar struggles and challenges beyond just pornography.

(17:13):
but they’re able to support each other through all the different facets. And I think people get that. And so I would just encourage people where wherever you feel like there’s a community that’s, that’s kind of got your label and you can see like, okay, I think these guys are gonna get me. Those are the places to plug in and it’s gonna take some courage, but there’s no reward without some courage along the way. And so if it’s scary, good, it’s, it should be a little bit scary, but it gets a lot better on the other side. You just gotta take that leap of faith

Fight The New Drug (17:39):
And there really are so many communities out there. I think something you touched on this earlier, but for some people they might be a little bit inhibited by shame. So can we talk a little bit about how you approach the conversation around shame with your clients and how, if that is something holding someone back from pursuing recovery or pursuing community or connection they might be able to break through that shame and kind of take a step forward?

Sathiya (18:03):
Yeah, we, with a client, we actually we approach shame in the context of what we call the triple threat. So shame is, is one of the three offenders. The three offenders are guilt, shame, and regret. And I think they all have very similar solutions, although there’s, there’s some nuance. So the general solutions are that you want to have other people that you’re talking to where you can be transparent where you can be open about what’s going on. The second layer is that you wanna respond. I actually, I actually say if you’re experiencing shame, it’s a really good sign that your heart’s still alive. Like it’s, it’s the really calloused hearts that don’t even feel shame anymore about it, that that’s when it’s a really, really serious problem. But if you’re feeling shame, it’s at least indicating your heart is alive.

(18:47):
I think talking to someone is very, very important. And the community piece really factors into this because one of the first things we hear when guys do join our community is, man, I thought I was the only one. I I had no idea. I mean, they, they will just scroll through all the stories of, you know I almost lost my marriage over this. I had affairs because of pornography. My career is on the line. I want to get this back so I can get more time with my kids or be a more present father or contribute to the community. Like all of a sudden you start to realize, wow, these guys have the same kind of ambitions. I have the same kind of dreams and hopes, and they have the same kind of struggles as well. And that in of itself is incredibly desing.

(19:24):
So I think what makes it very difficult to hurdle shame is that first step that we’re talking about is taking that leap of faith and that leap of courage. And one of the things that I would talk my clients through is I would say, well, what’s the act? What’s the worst case scenario? So, you know, they’ve identified that person and it’s like, well, I could tell my best friend, but what if he doesn’t wanna be my best friend anymore? Let’s talk about that. What if he doesn’t wanna be your best friend anymore? Have you, has he been your best friend your whole life? Well, no, I’ve gone through different seasons. Okay, so you might, you might have a seasonal change, but is it like, do you have other friends that you’re close with or is he your only friend in the entire world? No, I have, you know, like they can kind of see like, okay, I get where you’re going here, but sometimes you need to just explore that worst case scenario to realize, okay, if that’s my worst case scenario, I think I can survive that. And also the payoff of it is gonna be well worth it for me to get all the things that I’m after the, you know, restored family and all the things that we are mentioning. And that’s usually I think when people are willing to maybe explore a community share a little bit more openly and, and that kind of thing.

Fight The New Drug (20:23):
Yeah, I think that’s, it’s so powerful. I mean, we’ve heard so many stories. I’m sure you’ve heard so many stories of people who’ve been able to overcome shame about this topic in particular. And it really is something that for anyone who’s struggling with that, I hope that you have hope in knowing it is actually possible to overcome that it is actually possible to take a step forward and, and to take many steps forward and to address these root causes and to live a life that is, you know, fulfilling and free of pornography and allowing you the space you want to have to have healthy relationships and connections. So I would encourage anyone who’s in a space kind of considering what to do next to take that step. And, and maybe can you speak a little bit to some of the success stories from clients who’ve used your methods in particular to navigate challenges with pornography and what key elements contributed to their breakthroughs?

Sathiya (21:16):
Yeah, that’s a, it’s a great question. I, is it okay if I just comment really quickly on what you just said? ’cause I think this will be really important here.

Fight The New Drug (21:21):
Of course,

Sathiya (21:22):
They, they, I, you may have heard of this, this was an experiment done with rats a a couple years ago, and it was, it’s called the drowning rat experiment. So they would put the rat in the, in a bucket and they would time how long it took before a rat would basically give up and start, start trying to paddle its way out and it would drown. And I think it was something like, you know, 15 or 16 minutes or whatever it was. And in the second round of experiments, they started to identify the cues that the rat would give right when it’s about to give up. So right when it was about to give up, they would pick the rat up, they would take it out of the bucket, they would dry it off with some little rat size towel or something like that, and then they would put it back in the bucket and they would see, okay, if it, if it got a little taste of of kind of being bailed out, would that affect its, its hope meter or how, how long it was willing to swim around.

(22:08):
And what they found out is that the rat would actually swim for hours, hours, sometimes longer than a day just because it had that one little taste of what it was like to be out of the bucket. And I think when we’re talking about, you know, you guys have so many incredible stories, like story after story, I was going through your guys’ content before this interview. You have so many good stories on here of people recovering. We have a whole page dedicated on our site, literally just with stories of recovery. Because I believe every time you watch a video or you listen to this podcast and you hear another story, we’re, we’re pulling you out of that bucket. Like, we can’t, we can’t make you get free, but we can at least give you a little taste of what it’s like. And if you, if you’re willing to expose yourself to those stories, eventually your, your threshold of what’s possible starts to lower.

(22:52):
’cause you start to, sorry, the threshold to achieve what’s possible starts to lower. ’cause you start to realize, wow, there’s so many people doing this and it’s happening so many different ways. And it just starts to remind you again and again that it’s possible. Now let me, let me put my money where my mouth is here and share some actual stories like you’ve asked. So we, we have the three pillars of recovery, right? The self-awareness, healing of the heart and the identity piece. One story that, this is a little bit older, but it’s one that I keep coming back to again and again, and that is the the identity one. So we, we worked with a, a professional basketball player and he, he was in a season where he was transitioning out of basketball. So he had this entire career, his entire life really since he was a teenager, that was built around his ability to perform.

(23:37):
And he had this core belief, this core lie that I’m unvaluable if I do not perform to the best of my abilities or if I don’t perform well. And he was in a, a relationship, he was starting to date a girl. And the, the temptations and the cues, everything was starting to get to get triggered. And his girlfriend told him, Hey, like I, I see a future here with us, but just so you know, I consider pornography cheating. So if you’re watching pornography, you need to get it dealt with before you propose to me. So I don’t know about you, Natalie, I think that’s a pretty good girl right there, like drawing the line in the sand, being really assertive and making it really clear where she stood with everything. So he took it really seriously. He reached out to us, we started working with him, and as we start to kind of chip away and poke away at this lie it, it turns out that actually this lie had nothing to do with athletics.

(24:26):
That’s just where it manifested. This actually started much earlier in his childhood and in his upbringing. So we’re working through it, we’re processing it. We’re very fond of a modality called inner child work. And so we’re, we’re guiding him through a little bit of, of just this, this journey. And out of it, on the other side of it, he’s starting to embrace a new identity that’s apart from his performance and his ability to do well. So in that time they end up getting engaged and his, his girlfriend is like, okay, I can see the change. You’re definitely different person. You’re connecting with me differently. You’re more stable, you’re less uptight, you’re less high strung. And two weeks before their wedding day, he was going out to run an errand, he forgot to put his seatbelt on, and he wound up rolling his vehicle.

(25:08):
And in the process he actually incurred an injury that paralyzed him from the waist down. And well, like we were talking about earlier, recovery is actually not about just a, a a four month. Like, let’s, let’s supercharge the thing and see what we can do. This is actually about skill building. It’s about building skills that are gonna last a lifetime so that you don’t just obtain recovery, you actually maintain it long term. And the really cool thing is this athlete was able to use the skills that he had learned in our program to process some really intense grief, really intense trauma things that he’s still, like, his life looks radically different. It’s been a couple years now. He and his fiance did get engaged and they’re happily married and they’re still starting that journey together. But that, that story for me is just such a great reminder that what you do in recovery, if you have a roots based approach, it’s not just about, it’s like the, the recovery is just like the rock in the pond.

(26:04):
It’s the actual ripples where you start to really see an impact. We, we just got another story this is just a couple weeks ago, and this is from a guy who went through, he was going through our second pillar, which is the heart process, and he’s working through some trauma, some things from the past. And he had a very abusive father, a father that was really, really hard and the relationship was fractured. And he’s got a bunch of brothers and none of them are really in conversation with him. And as he’s going through this process, he’s realizing, you know what? I think I need to reach out to my dad and extend an olive branch and just say, Hey, like, you know, all, all is all is forgiven. Like, I’m not holding this against you anymore. And you know, again, it doesn’t mean that you go back and you have the most incredible relationship ever, but ever.

(26:45):
But he just wanted to kind of smooth things over. And so he had a conversation with his father, really well received. I mean, his father was really moved ’cause he had been harboring a lot of guilt over his behavior over the years, and especially now that a lot of his sons have estranged him. He was really grateful for the reach out. Three weeks later, Natalie, three weeks later he passed away. And this client of ours, you can just imagine the relief, like, not only did he take a huge step in his recovery, but now like there’s no, there’s gonna be no regrets. He said everything he needed to say, he was able to, to reconcile as best as he could under those circumstances. And he can just be completely assured, I did my part. And that’s gonna impact him now for the rest of his life. He, he has a very different memory of how things ended with his father ’cause he was willing to go through this process. So so that tho those are the kinds of stories that we get really excited about. And all of these guys, like, obviously it’s worth mentioning that they’re not watching pornography anymore. It’s not in their lives. That’s kind of a given for us, but it’s, it’s the ripples that we get really excited about.

Fight The New Drug (27:46):
Yeah, thank you for sharing both of those. I think it says so much about the way that people often think about recovery on this issue. I love that you just shared both of these stories with only having to mention at the end. Oh, and also obviously pornography is, you know, not a part of the equation anymore because I think for so many people who think about tackling this issue, that’s the only thing they can think about. That’s the only thing they can focus on. And so to be able to really look at the root causes and see all of the healing that that can open up so much further beyond pornography that feels like it’s the thing that has all of the power, I, I think speaks volumes about what this, what this issue is for people, but also what healing can look like and, and what a life free from pornography can look like. So thank you so much for sharing those stories and for all, all of the work you do that I’m sure has helped so many others, like both of those individuals to have that same ripple effect in their own lives.

Sathiya (28:44):
Yeah, I, I, I mean, I’m, I’m super grateful. Like I’m still amazed that the fact that we’re able to serve people the way that we can serve them, it’s, it’s, it’s really amazing. And I think the, you know, you were talking earlier about how so many people can get, just get obsessed with the recovery part of it. And I think that’s where you see a lot of people that will count streaks and do that kind of stuff. And our whole, our whole philosophy, like we do not, we don’t track streaks. We’re not super interested in that. We do believe in tracking trends, like are things progressing over longer periods of time. But really the goal for us is, and like we, we’ve kind of had this whole philosophy built around freedom. And I see, I see this language used in a lot of the content you guys are putting out as well, like freedom fighters and, you know, that kind of idea.

(29:26):
Because I think freedom is really what we’re after. I think a, a traditional addiction model is a little bit more about sobriety, which is just did you abstain from the behavior? And obviously that’s a very good step. Like that’s where everything starts with our clients as well, right? And we do want them to achieve sobriety. But I think when we’re talking about freedom, you know, this is what we’re talking about is a real systemic change that is impacting people around you, your loved ones, your relationships. We have a lot of wives reach out, you know, some, but some point in the program where it’s like, Hey, what did you do with my husband? Or what’s different? Is this for real? you know, because that’s what should happen. If if you really have a roots based approach, your loved one should be asking like, Hey, what happened to you, man? Like, you’re changing. And I like it, like, keep keep doing what you’re doing, but this is really cool to see. And I think I think that’s, that’s what I’m hoping to see more of in the days ahead, in the recovery world, especially around pornography addiction is a more freedom kind of oriented approach that tackles the roots.

Fight The New Drug (30:20):
Yeah, and I think that speaks to, I know we’ve spoken about this on our podcast and you have in your work as well, but it’s like the Johann Hari TED talk that’s the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it’s connection, which obviously sobriety is an important step that we’ve spoken about in this, but really speaking about those relationships, right? If your loved ones are noticing this change in you that’s allowing for deeper connection and, and stronger connections and building healthier relationships there is only kind of that positive ripple effect. So

Sathiya (30:49):
We quote that Ted talk a lot in our community. We’re big fans of it because I think the, the connection thing is such a big deal, and we’d already talked about with community, with others, but there’s also a connection with self, like learning to really see yourself for your true value, your true worth to see your identity apart from like the addicted person and the person who’s had an addiction and really embracing a new identity. We don’t really believe in, once an addict always an addict, we believe that your identity can change and you can leave that part behind. And I think, you know, if faith and spirituality is part of your life, then obviously that connection with God can really be very critical as well. So yeah, we love that quote for all the reasons we’re talking about, right? Because it’s, it goes beyond just sobriety. It goes beyond a lifestyle of freedom.

Fight The New Drug (31:30):
Yeah. One thing I wanna ask you about kind of a newer way people have been connecting over the past, you know, several years is social media and where you mentioned for yourself and many others in the stories you’ve spoken about this is, this is a habit, a compulsion and addiction that starts for people at a very, very young age. And so in, you know, this day and age where social media and unlimited internet access are something that essentially every young person has at, at some very young point in their life are you able to speak to the ways that younger and younger generations are being impacted because of that, particularly regarding their mental health and or the way that it’s feeling struggles like this with pornography?

Sathiya (32:17):
Yeah, it’s a really important question. A lot of moving parts. So I, I’ll say a couple of things. I think the first thing is that the age of exposure to pornography has gone down a little bit with all the technological advancements, but actually not that significantly. Like I was a university researcher, so I, I’m looking through the reports and all that all the time. Usually it’s anywhere from like eight to 13, depending on which study you’re looking at. My first exposure was 11, and that was before smartphones and all that kind of stuff. The big difference now though with smartphones is the volume and the intensity of the content. And that is having a huge impact because even, like I said, we work with people that are generally 25 and above, but we do, we have had clients that are younger, and what we’re seeing is that the level of dependency is very, very high.

(33:04):
Not just on pornography, but on all the other things that I would say are maybe a, a step below pornography, like social media. To me, social media is sort of like pornography’s gateway drug because it, it kind of gets the dopamine circuits going, it, it primes the pump and eventually you want something that’s a little bit more intense, a little bit more satisfying, a little bit more pleasurable. And that’s usually where pornography comes into the picture. So when we’re working with clients, we really do advocate for some pretty strong boundaries around social media. And, and that’s just because number one, we know that if you can kind of master some of the things upstream, like we said earlier, even some of these habits upstream, it’s gonna lead to a better outcome in your recovery efforts. But the second thing which you just touched on, and I’m so glad you brought it up, is we do know now, I mean, I’m very grateful for people like Jonathan Heidt.

(33:53):
I don’t know if you guys have corresponded with him at all, but some of that research that’s coming out that’s just showing, hey, the more involved you are digitally and technologically, the worse the impact is on your mental health, the more prone you are to anxiety and depression. And Jonathan, he’s research in particular has shown, especially for women it’s, they’re like the, the worst affected demographic is women ages 13 to 18. They’re, they’re the most affected. Suicidality is like skyrockets, anxiety, depression, body image issues, all that stuff spikes for people in this demographic. But actually men aren’t too far behind, and especially the younger age groups, all of the same issues. So I think, again, suicidality, anxiety, depression, those are things that we can maybe kind of rationalize or reason you’re, you’re getting this pseudo connection, but you’re not really connecting and you’re very dopamine driven, but then you’re not getting anything more meaningful and pleasurable in life.

(34:47):
That’s actually long term and fulfilling. But the, the one part that people sometimes miss in this conversation, Natalie, is actually that the body image part, and there was actually a study done a few years ago that showed men who view pornography are more likely to have eating disorders, eating disorders, such an obscure study. But the linking piece was the body dysmorphia that gets developed from viewing pornography. ’cause you grow up watching these men, they have perfect bodies, they have e everything’s sculpted and there’s a prototype there. And when you don’t match that prototype, it creates these insecurities and the specific studies showed they are more likely to engage in eating disorder, be behaviors, binging and purging and all those kinds of things. So I think men are really affected as well, even though it can slide under the radar a little bit. And a lot of it has to do with yeah, there’s the dopamine and the way that your body interacts with social media and pornography. All of those things make you more prone to mental illness like depression and anxiety. But the, the secondary layer that sort of seals everything is the messaging you get from pornography, the, the things that we internalize about our own wellbeing and our bodies and everything else that can really fuel the depression and fuel the anxiety and keep us stuck in it a lot longer than we should be.

Fight The New Drug (36:04):
Yeah, and I think one thing I wanna add to that, so often we hear about how pornography impacts body image for women and even for women who are partners of porn, consumers, how their body image can be affected and, you know, by this standard that they think their partner’s attracted to that doesn’t match what they look like. But we don’t often hear about how male body image is impacted as well. So I think that’s super important to bring up. And I just wanna add to that, while we’ve primarily been talking about men who consume pornography today, based on your work, women also consume pornography and struggle with pornography. And there are many resources out there for women as well. And women experience a lot of the same things of the feelings of shame, the feelings of being the only ones research actually shows.

(36:47):
Women often experience that to a greater degree than men because societally porn is more normalized for men to consume than women. So if you are, if you are a woman listening to this podcast who may be struggling as well, know that you’re not excluded from this conversation and there are also many resources available for you and hope for you as well. I do wanna to jump back to this a little bit. How do you think the conversation around porn and mental health has shifted in recent years? You know, these are things that, there’s this research coming out. We are aware of these things, but there’s still kind of this general normalization that is being fueled by the social media machines that, that we’re all growing and increasingly drawn to. Right? And so how do you think the conversation has shifted and what can our listeners do to help shift this conversation in a positive direction?

Sathiya (37:36):
That’s a great question. I, I think five years ago, six years ago, this conversation mostly revolved around sexual health, sexual performance. You’re hearing the stats about young men experiencing erectile dysfunction and sexual mis performance, and that that still is definitely the case. In fact, those numbers are only going up. But I do think where the conversation is now and where it’s going is, is stemming beyond that the effects of relationships. And I think, again, we’re, we’re gonna probably circle back to this a bunch of times. The whole connection thing is so important. And I think anything that has an ill effect on our ability to connect and to relate with one another is going to be a, a bigger problem down the road. And I think with pornography, the, the issues that lie ahead for us are that people are becoming more isolated, more lonely, and less capable of meaningful connection.

(38:27):
There’s, there’s less capacity. Like sometimes the skills aren’t there, they’re not even developed or the experiences aren’t there. So I think that’s the road ahead. Those are the things that we need to challenge is figuring out just how the heck do we get people connecting in a meaningful way on a regular basis. If we can accomplish that, a lot of the other things actually will start to curb like the mental illness and the porn consumption and the addiction to technology and social media. So what can we do to actually steer this conversation? I think we have to lead the way. That’s something I always tell people is especially when I’m talking to fathers, ’cause I think a lot of fathers get concerned that their kids are gonna repeat the, the challenges and the struggles they’ve run into. And my main encouragement to fathers, but to anybody listening is be the change, be the change that you wanna see in the world.

(39:14):
Because I, I think if we don’t, if we just sort of like raise awareness on, oh, woe is me and look at the direction things are going in, we can actually create this sense of kind of victimness or, or, or lack of responsibility. But I’m, I’m mean, I’m just crazy enough to think that if I can’t help enough guys quit pornography and if I can continue to share my story of recovery, and if we can keep getting the messages out there and you guys can keep growing your influence and getting more stories out there, I’m just crazy enough to think that actually people will start to wake up to this, start to realize it’s possible and start to model instead of just talking about ideals and prototypes, start to actually model it. And so if there’s one thing I would say to anybody who’s listening or watching this, I would just say, man, be the example.

(39:53):
Lead, lead the way. And, and if you don’t have your own recovery story, this has never been a problem for you. And number one, that is just absolutely amazing. And number two, even that story needs to be heard. That story is still worth telling. It’s worth sharing. It’s gonna inspire a lot of other people and there’s things that we can learn from you as well. So I, I think everybody has their part to play and I think it just starts by by being the example and, and really pioneering the change and demonstrating, not just talking about it, but actually demonstrating what’s possible.

Fight The New Drug (40:22):
Yeah. I love that you said you’re crazy enough to believe that you could affect change in this way, because I think for, for you and I and for my team, and I’m sure your team, you know, we do get to see that positive ripple effect every day. We hear the people who say you know, I saw someone wear a t-shirt that had a related message on it when I was in high school, and I didn’t think about it again until seven years later when this was a problem in my life and I googled that and then I found a resource or, you know, whatever, whatever the stories are, there is always a ripple effect. And if you, and I can see this, this positive change in so many people’s lives individually, I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that affecting change in this way will have a positive ripple effect on individual’s relationships in society, right, in our communities. So you mentioned parents as well, fathers specifically, but what advice would you have for parents who are talking about pornography with their kids? As someone who accessed porn at a young age and works with those who are struggling with pornography, what advice would you give to those parents?

Sathiya (41:22):
Yeah, I get this question a lot, especially ’cause I share in pretty good depth in my book about, you know, our, my early exposure and how it impacted me. I think a lot of parents are realizing like, okay, this is an important thing. The first thing probably is to accept that the conversation has shifted from if your child sees pornography to when. And so that’s a good thing to, to understand and it’s actually, it, it’s actually a good thing. I really do think it’s a good thing in the sense that we can prepare for it, and if you can do this well, your children can actually get exposed and that can be the end of their story. So I think that’s the first thing I, the, the second thing is, and I’ve, I’ve learned this really just from interviewing people on my own podcast.

(42:01):
people like Joe Robertson who do a lot of research in this and safeguarding and protecting kids that the earlier and the more frequent you can have conversations around sexuality at large the better chance you have when your kid does get exposed, that they might come to you and talk to you about what they saw instead of trying to hide it, feeling ashamed or being afraid that they’re gonna get in trouble. So that’s the best advice I could give. You know, I’m a new father, my son is 13 months old and already my wife and I are starting to think about like, how do we broach this subject around more, more around sexuality and stuff like that so that when he is whatever age it is where we give him his own device, we haven’t agreed on what that age is gonna be yet, but when we do, when that does happen, we can tell him, Hey, you might find some pornography something called pornography.

(42:45):
Here’s what this is. If you find anything, just let us know. You’re not gonna be in trouble. We just want to know. And I think that any parent can say that, but if you’ve sort of built up a history of, I’ve talked to my dad, or I’ve talked to my mom about this subject before, they always seem pretty calm about it. It was safe, I didn’t get reprimanded. They’re much more likely to actually follow through with that. So I think that’s, that’s the ideal, or that’s the prototype. And the second thing I would say is, and any parent can do this, whether your kids are teenagers or even young adults, but you can actually share your own stories and your own experiences. A lot of parents are afraid to do that. They’re afraid that if I share where I’ve struggled or fallen short, I’m gonna lower the bar.

(43:25):
But all that does when you share that story is it just allows your kids to relate to you more. And especially if you have a story of recovery or that you’re figuring it out, all of those things are, are dribbles of hope and encouragement that your kids really need. And if it’s really messed you up or it’s really had an impact on your life, which is probably the case, you can actually share about that in a way that brings awareness of, you know, daddy got exposed when he was about your age as well. Here’s kinda the impact it had. I really don’t want you to fall in down this path and let’s talk about, you know, whatever. Let’s talk about how we can make sure this doesn’t happen again. Or let’s talk about how you can maybe be a little bit more safeguarded on your devices. I think sharing your story is really powerful and you can use it as an entry point so that your kid doesn’t feel like, oh, my parents never struggled, so why is this a struggle for me? That’s actually gonna further the shame. So your story can desham your kid and it can actually help them just feel a little bit more confident in their own journey.

Fight The New Drug (44:20):
Yeah, you touched on so many things we say so often. It’s not if it’s when I commend you for considering when to talk about this with your brand new baby. But it it, but it is not if it’s when, and we also always say, you know, parents, you wanna be the, the one your child comes to instead of googling their questions about pornography or sex or whatever that is. You wanna be the safe person that they get to ask those questions to, questions to. So opening that door, creating that safe space is so healthy. And then also for individuals who have struggled, you know, who better qualified to tell your children about the potential harms of this than you who has experienced them and can speak from that firsthand experience. So I think that’s such good encouragement. And for anyone who’s maybe navigating this right now, we do also have a conversation blueprint that we can link in the show notes that can also kind of help guide through how to navigate a productive conversation if you don’t even know where to begin. And there are so many other resources out there that can help as well. So know you are not alone in this but, but it is great to consider as early as possible when and how to navigate this topic.

Sathiya (45:28):
Yeah, I definitely, and I will say, I, I think you and I have both probably have reached this conclusion on our own. I think most people in this space have, if the narrative around pornography is really going to change, it’s gonna start with the conversations and the experiences that our youth are having. So this, this part of the conversation, it’d be easy to gloss over this, but I really do think if, if we have some sort of hopeful outcome over the next 20 to 30 years as technology advances in AR and VR and AI and you know, all the different conversations that are happening technologically, I think what gives me hope is to think that we can actually reach the youth, impact them, that if parents can, can do their job, having these conversations and changing some of the narratives around pornography that, yeah, another generation or two from now, things could actually be very different. And I, I feel really hopeful about that. But yeah, parents, parents actually control a lot of the outcome in that regard. So I think this is a huge part when we talked about the future and down the road, it, it really does start with the youth.

Fight The New Drug (46:24):
Yeah. And I think sometimes we often hear from parents who feel like you just mentioned so many things, vr, ai, you know, all of these advancements in technology that parents think, well, I can’t keep up with these, so I don’t even know where to begin. And it’s okay to also not have all of the answers, right. When you’re approaching this conversation, it’s okay to ask your teenagers questions about what they’re experiencing and then say, oh, that’s great. I’m so glad to learn that this is something you’re experiencing. I’d love to research it and learn a little bit more about that, and then let’s have another conversation. You know, I think sometimes there’s this pressure to have all of the answers and it’s okay not to. So,

Sathiya (47:00):
Yeah. And it’s, it’s actually good. I, I mean, I think it’s okay to say, I actually, I don’t know. Let me go figure that out. Or let’s, let’s learn about that together. And maybe they watch Brain, heart World, or, or they, they check out some resources where they’re gonna get a chance to, to get informed together. That I’ve actually done, I’ve actually specifically sent that documentary to a bunch of parents that have come to me that want to try to figure things out with their kid. And I, I, I just think that’s an amazing approach to have about it. And again, it just takes the pressure off. There’s, there’s so much around conversations about sex and there’s all these, there’s all these expectations and anxieties, and I just think when a parent can say, yeah, I don’t know, or I’m figuring that out still, it really goes a long way to your kid feeling safe around you, comfortable around you, and being more likely to have a positive outcome.

Fight The New Drug (47:46):
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for sharing that. For anyone who might be listening who says, well, you know what, I’ve tried everything and nothing worked for me. I’ve tried everything to quit pornography. It’s something that’s been a part of my life forever. It’s always gonna be a part of my life. There’s nothing I can do about it. I’ve tried everything. What advice would you give to someone who might be feeling that way today?

Sathiya (48:13):
I, I always come back to the parable of the Diamond miner and it, I dunno if you’ve ever seen this, it’s just a little image. And there’s two people that dug to find diamonds and one person, they stopped just a foot short, you know, two or three more swings of the pickax, and they would’ve got it versus the other person who, who persisted and kept going. So what I would say to the person who feels like this is gonna be part of your life forever, you’ve tried everything in the books and you can’t figure it out, the thing I would say to you is, if you don’t quit, you win. And it might mean that you get it on that 1000 in first. Try. Just keep going as long as you keep going. Eventually, this path does lead to a place of freedom and recovery.

(48:56):
I believe that with all my heart, and I was purporting this message when I first started because it, it made sense to me and it was my experience. But now that we’ve seen thousands of guys go through our system, I mean, we’ve helped over 1500 people, but we’re talking about 10,000 people plus that have gone through our book, which basically is our system and the workbook that comes with it. We’ve just, we’ve seen this enough to know, okay, actually the name of the game is not, it’s not about like the perfect little tactic or strategy that’s gonna set you free. It’s actually about the persistence and keeping, keeping the momentum going. And as long as you’re willing to keep trying, it does eventually work. These are the moments where recovery really happens, is when you can get yourself through the desolate and desperate places that this is where that character gets forced.

(49:42):
And this is usually where you start to hear the other part of the recovery story. And I just think there’s a bunch of people listening whose recovery story is 75% there, and that other 25% is gonna happen because if they don’t quit, they win. You. You just need to keep going. And the other thing I would say, maybe something that’s a little bit more practical is if you’ve tried something and it’s gotten you this far, but you feel like you’ve plateaued, you might need to do something different. And we’ve had a lot of clients where we kind of get to be that last 25%, and we know that, hey, as great as our program is, there was a bunch of other work done that got the 75% done. And so it, it’s just important that, that to understand like, wherever you are, at some point you might plateau at that 75% and you need a little switch to get the rest of the way, or you might be early on in recovery, and it’s just scary and you gotta take that leap and kind of make that first step. But I, I think those are the only things I would say practically. I think most of this is psychological. And to that, I would say if you don’t quit, you win.

Fight The New Drug (50:41):
Very well said. For any of our listeners who are looking to utilize your resources, can you tell them where to look?

Sathiya (50:50):
Yeah. The best place is gonna be the book. That’s what we really recommend the most. And for your audience, it is available for free. It’s called The Last Relapse, and we’ve given a special link here that you can find in the description to access that. And after, after you actually get that book delivered to you, we do redirect to a training that explains our deep clean system in more depth. If people want to check that out, that’s there as well. Those are the best places to start, for sure.

Fight The New Drug (51:15):
Amazing. Sophia, thank you so much for your time today. Is there anything else you wanna share with our listeners before we wrap today?

Sathiya (51:22):
Yeah, you know, the, the last thing I would say is I think in the day of information and content, you know we are just, we’re taking in information a mile a minute, and there’s this old saying that knowledge is power. And I’m personally, I don’t believe that. I do not believe that knowledge is power. I believe that knowledge is potential. I, I think knowledge is a bullet in a gun, but it’s action that pulls the trigger. It’s, it’s knowledge with action. That’s where real power lies. So if you’re listening to this show, you’re, you’re getting some ideas some different things you can try, my big encouragement is take a step, try something you haven’t tried before. Do do something to act on what you’ve learned and watch what happens. You’ll be amazed, you know, we, we teach our clients that we will take imperfect action over perfect progress any day of the week. Just, just keep taking steps and as long as you don’t quit, you win. So that, that would be my last encouragement to your listeners.

Fight The New Drug (52:16):
It’s very beautifully said. So the, I’m so grateful we got to have this conversation today to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us. Please check out our resources that are linked in the show notes if you are looking for help on this issue, and follow that advice to use your own voice and, and share your own story to take some action and help us change the conversation on this issue and, and help others find the freedom and healing that we’ve been talking about throughout this episode.

Promos (52:52):
Deciding to quit porn in the new year. Get help from our friends at Fortify Meet Fortify, an online recovery program that has helped tens of thousands of individuals around the world stop their porn habit in its tracks. Fortify is free. Science-based recovery platform is dedicated to helping you find lasting freedom from pornography you can connect with others, learn how to better understand your compulsive behavior and track your recovery journey. Make this the year you quit pouring for good. Join Fortify for free today at ftd.org/fortify. That’s ftd.org/fortify. You’re not alone. Recovery is possible. Quit pouring for good with fortify. Fight the new drug as an affiliate of Fortify and may receive financial support from purchases made using affiliate links. If you have a resolution to give charitably in the new year, consider joining Fighter Club for as little as $10 a month. You can take an active role in helping others recognize how porn can impact them, their relationships, and their communities. As a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit, we rely on fighter Club members to help us create resources that educate countless individuals on the harms of pornography. Like this podcast. Plus, as a member of Fighter Club, you’ll receive exclusive benefits, like 30% off the fight, the new drugstore access to our Secret Store Fighter Club only webinars and a fighter club kit when you join, make a Real Difference in the Movement For Love this year. Join Fighter Club for as little as $10 a month at ftnd.org/join fc. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/join fc. See you in the club.

Outro (54:34):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming, consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science facts and personal accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support, consider before Consuming, you can make a one time or recurring donation of any amount ftdn.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.