Introduction (00:00:00):
Today’s episode is with Breanna and Brandon Vales from Red Light Rebellion, an awareness and prevention organization that educates young people about the dangers of child sex trafficking. Brandon shares how her passion for fighting sex trafficking began in high school, leading her to start the organization. Brandon opens up about a struggle with pornography addiction, its effect on his mental health and how he joined the fight against the demand for sex trafficking. The conversation covers how their experiences influenced their work and how they aim to empower youth to recognize the red flags of grooming and exploitation. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (00:00:59):
We are here today with Red Light Rebellion. I’m so excited to get to have this conversation with both of you. I’m so excited for our fighters to get to hear this. We have known of the two of you for quite a long time. Many moons ago you did an awesome photo shoot for Fight The New Drug, and we’ve kind of kept tabs on you. So I’m so excited to share with our fighters today who you are why you’re a part of this movement, what you’re doing in this movement. Your work is so exciting. So would you start by introducing yourselves a little bit and the work that you do at Red Light Rebellion?

Brandon (00:01:34):
Yeah. Thanks so much, Natale. Yeah. I’m Brandon.

Breanna (00:01:37):
I’m Breanna,

Brandon (00:01:38):
And we’re from Red Light Rebellion.

Breanna (00:01:40):
And so first off, just wanna say that we’ve been following Fight the New Drug for, gosh, over 10 years now. And so we’re like just giddy and like fangirling being here, for real,

(00:01:47):
Really grateful. But yeah, at Red Light Rebellion we do awareness and prevention for sex trafficking. And so our whole goal is to stop it before it starts. And we kind of joke that we wanna do like world domination for awareness and prevention ’cause no kid should ever have to experience exploitation again. Yeah. And so most of our programs are in schools and the community churches, really, whoever will allow us and come to talk to youth about what it is and how to stay safe, we’ll do that. We also talk to parents and then those that work with kids. And we also address mental health and resiliency, healthy relationships and demand prevention, all in the context of fighting sex trafficking.

Fight The New Drug (00:02:24):
Amazing. And what led each of you to work in sex trafficking prevention? Specifically? Why did you choose to be an education focused organization?

Breanna (00:02:34):
Yeah, yeah. So

Brandon (00:02:35):
You go first on that.

Breanna (00:02:36):
Yeah. I actually first heard about sex trafficking while at a church camp in high school and felt called to really like, lead a movement against it. Didn’t know what to do about that. And then six months later found out my church was helping launch the first aftercare program in Arizona for girls coming out of sex trafficking. So I just started like getting involved going into meetings, learned about how the average age of entry is only 13 years old. And I just took very personally, like I was in high school, my little brother was in junior high. I am like, man, like me and my friends, my little brother and his friends are the targets for this. And so we should know what this is and how to stay safe. And at the time there really weren’t many, many people that knew sex trafficking was like a domestic issue in the United States, let alone were in the schools doing education on it.

(00:03:18):
And so my senior year of high school, I got like family, friends, mentors together and we actually started Red Light Rebellions first program. And, and the thought with being education focused and prevention driven is like, yeah, we can arrest the pimps and we can recover the victims, but there’s just this like cycle of just going and finding more victims. And so if we can actually stop young people from being vulnerable to sex trafficking in the first place, we can actually cut this off completely. And so that’s really our goal in it. Yeah.

Brandon (00:03:48):
Yeah. And I kind of just got here on accident, honestly, I wasn’t planning on doing anything like this, but for me, I, having grown up like pretty much everyone else that’s grown up in a post-internet world, having struggled with pornography and having negative impacts on my life I gotta the point where I started really engaging my story about my early twenties and had started going to counseling and therapy. And at this one point I remember looking at the counselor and saying like, I’m gonna do something to break the hold that pornography has on people. And at that time I was just like, oh man, that, how do I even do that? Do I just walk up to dudes on the street and be like, Hey man, what’s your browser history been like? Like what are you doing late at night? And I was like, that’s kind of weird. So awkward yeah, I don’t know what I’m gonna do with this yet. And then, so probably it was a year after we got married.

Fight The New Drug (00:04:37):
Mm-Hmm.

Brandon (00:04:37):
Breanna had already started Red Light Rebellion. She was already doing classroom presentations with some other friends for Red Light Rebellion. And I think, yeah, you just kind of came to me and you were like, Hey, would you be interested in like talking about the demand prevention side and like sharing your story too with a bunch of high schoolers? And I was like, oh, that sounds crazy. I’ve never done something like that before. And so yeah, I did the first presentation and it was like four ninth grade classes all back to back. Yeah.

Breanna (00:05:08):
First time ever publicly sharing a story

Brandon (00:05:11):
And so it actually went really well.

Breanna (00:05:13):
Mm-Hmm.

Brandon (00:05:14):
and yeah, so since then that’s kind of been what got me in the door. And since then, I’m now full-time and have been for a while. Mm-Hmm.And yeah, it’s been really cool, especially with that piece of it just to bring just ’cause there’s so much shame in this topic. Yeah. And so one thing that we’re really passionate about is one of our big messages and mantras at Red Larry Rebellion is your past is not define you. Mm-Hmm.

Fight The New Drug (00:05:37):
With a lot of our programming. And so we see it just resonating really deeply with a lot of students. Yeah. Well, you know, we are also very anti shame and we’re also passionate about that. It’s one of the things that we love about the work you guys are doing. While we’re we’re here Brandon, will you talk a little bit about your struggle with pornography impacted your life and you know, what are you sharing when you speak to, to these young people about this piece of your story? What are you sharing with them just for our listeners to get a lens a look at that aspect of your life.

Brandon (00:06:13):
Totally, totally. Yeah. And so as far as the impact, I think we had four or five hours to talk about that because Yeah, that’s how long it takes to for sure unpack all

Fight The New Drug (00:06:22):
ThatYeah, we do.

Breanna (00:06:23):
Actually, this is a super long podcast.

Brandon (00:06:26):
Great, great.

Breanna (00:06:27):
There’s long form content out here,

Brandon (00:06:29):
It’s totallyBut yeah, it really yeah, so for me the story that I share with students is talking about in my early twenties I got to the place with pornography where it was for me, I gotta the point where I was out of control with it and it wasn’t I’ve had other friends and guys that were actually using it more frequently than I even was, but I was just in a space where every time I told myself I wasn’t going to be looking at porn, I would go and do that. And that just kind of like living that way of telling myself I’m doing one thing and then I’m doing the exact opposite of that after just living like that for so long. When you look yourself in the mirror, you kind of like realize that you’re completely full of crap , you know, and there’s just like a deep sense of shame associated with that.

(00:07:20):
And so over this specific year, it just kind of like spiraled outta control for me. And I was getting to the point where I was just contemplating ending everything and just deleting myself. And in, throughout that process, I finally like got to a point where I was like, okay, like something needs to change with this. There’s a lot that was going on. But really took a step back and was like, okay, I need, like, I’ve got two directions in front of me. I can like, keep going down this path of just like ignoring and trying to avoid all of the issues and feelings coming up. Or I can like try and engage it and look at when students, we talk about the difference between coping and dealing. Coping being like numbing out and just trying to escape the pain where dealing is like facing it head on.

(00:08:10):
And in like this little moment, I was like, okay, let’s like go that direction and see what it looks like. And, and throughout that process realized that I needed to expose a lot of what was happening. And so for me it had actually, I started tracing back the pornography usage. And so it had started when trace it back to as early as fourth grade for me that had actually stemmed from instances of sexual abuse from when I was younger that kind of spread throughout some other kids and then turned into the pornography addiction. And we all just kind of went our own separate ways. And so that was something that, growing up my whole life, I was like, I’m literally never telling anyone about this. This is like weird. Like I just need to make sure everyone just knows how happy I am.

(00:08:54):
And so in going down that path towards dealing, I was like, man, okay, I have to like, bring the sound of the light. And so went through a process of just sharing it with pretty much everyone that was a support person for me, mom, dad, sister other family members, friends, pastors, mentors. And really just did everything I could to bring it into the light and found myself still struggling after that. And really started going down was like, oh man, I just did all this work and I’m still not good enough. And just found myself like constantly in this like, feedback loop of trying to put effort in to prove that I could be good enough. Mm-Hmm. to not be dirty or perverted and constantly failing at it. Mm-Hmm.And so that started like as early as I could really remember and went all the way through like kind of early mid twenties.

(00:09:50):
and so the negative effects that that’s had even on I think one thing that we both learned a lot about when we’re went through a therapy program dealing with like the addiction side and the betrayal side was just the concept of like attachment theory. Mm-Hmm.And just recognizing that a lot of how I naturally approach relationships or actually just avoid them is a lot of my issue. That I’m approaching things in an unhealthy way. And so even with pornography, it just fueled so much of me not being able to have the kinds of relationships that I want and just feeling really alone a lot of the time and not having the skills to be able to reach out for help or even be able to meet my own needs. Mm-Hmm.And I think that’s one big thing that I’ve really loved about recovery is that it’s reallyI was definitely the kid in high school that was like, yeah, no limits. Like, I’m gonna run faster and farther than everyone else and just do more

Breanna (00:10:53):
Sleep when I die

Brandon (00:10:54):
Yeah. And recovery’s really forced me to recognize that like, I actually am a human being and I do have to eat on a regular basis and sleep and sleep and and yeah. And now I can only like go so long without like doing physical activity. And so yeah, there’s a lot of, there’s been a lot of negative impacts for sure. Mm-Hmm. that Yeah.

Breanna (00:11:19):
And even so negative impacts even beyond like relationship, it, it did impact like your lifestyle and your mental health and like all of those dynamics that felt like when one area that’s so significant feels outta control, like every area of life feels outta control. And so it’s hard to just like manage and have normal routines and all of that kinda stuff. And so that, but getting that locked down actually helped you so much with like sobriety and recovery and those kinds of things.

Brandon (00:11:44):
So. Totally. And I think one massive thing too that I’ve recognized as I’ve been more so in long-term recovery is just like how distracted I was all the time and how many things I was wanting to do, how many projects that like, were really exciting that I just never got to because I was consumed with porn. And it kinda, it really sucks to live that way and I’m just really glad to not live that way anymore, honestly.

Fight The New Drug (00:12:10):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. I think there are so many pieces of your experience that so many people could relate to and have also experienced, but often there is so much shame around this that I think people don’t know that often they feel like they’re the only ones going through this or feel really alone in this struggle. So thank you for sharing that so openly. If you’re both able to speak a little bit to really what this looked like in your relationship and you know, what your roles were throughout this recovery process within the relationship and how this experience shaped your relationship I think that’s also a piece of this many people could relate to or it would be helpful to hear your perspectives or, or advice on.

Brandon (00:12:57):
Yeah,

Breanna (00:12:58):
Yeah, definitely. I think for me what was interesting is I had studied like the harmful effects of pornography since like junior high high school. I was just like a weird kid in that way,And so I understood like addiction. I knew that like in a relationship, like your partner looking at porn wasn’t like wasn’t about you. You know, like it was about them. And so like conceptually, like I understood a lot of those things. And so when Brandon and I got together, he was like so open about his struggle. Like it wasn’t like he was hiding and lying. Totally. They didn’t have like a D-Day. Like a lot of women were like, they call it the discovery day, where they find out, like they feel like their whole relationship’s lie. They didn’t know this. Brandon was always open and honest.

Brandon (00:13:35):
Yeah. That was something that I was like, man, whoever I date. ’cause I had gone to counseling and went through that process before I’d even met Breanna. And so I was like, man, I like for sure have to be upfront that this is a thing.

Breanna (00:13:46):
Yeah. And so I thought, like, and so, but knowing all of those things didn’t save us from the pain and trauma addiction, it

Brandon (00:13:53):
Didn’t work as well as we’d

Breanna (00:13:54):
HopedYeah. And so I think for me, it took a long time to, like, it wasn’t until the first session that I went to for group therapy it was more of like an educational session. So like we’re sitting in a room with like a couple dozen other like men that are like addicted to porn and, you know, women that have been betrayed sexually by their partner. And I remember them saying that an addiction is actually an emotional intimacy disorder. And as soon as they said that, I knew exactly what they meant and it hit me to the core where I was like, oh my goodness, this is where all the pain is coming from. Because when Brandon would like act out and disclose what had happened, and he was able to be emotionally available for my hurt and my pain and help process that with me, like I was able to like bounce back, for lack of a better term a lot better than when he would disclose and he was still being honest, but when he wasn’t in a place to be able to be emotionally available for my pain, it that’s where like that sense of betrayal, abandonment, loneliness, emotional neglect, like all of those things just like really reared their ugly heads.

(00:14:57):
And so then going into that therapy program I just saw the full gamut of the impact on relationships too. Like Mm-Hmm. I was in, you know, like the room with women as they’re having like panic attacks about it. I was I know women that have developed cancer because of the stress that their body was under had to have tumors removed. Hair loss, extreme weight loss and weight gain. Not being able to sleep and insomnia and depression not being able to get outta bed. Like all these things. And like I experienced elements of like those things as well. So I think when you have someone that is experiencing that level of trauma which clinically is PTSD, even though they call it like betrayal trauma PTSD is ultimately like what it is. And we know about 72% of women that have been sexually betrayed develop betrayal trauma.

(00:15:43):
And so in that form of PTSD. And so having experienced that and watching so many others experience it, it’s like, man, we’re also trying to like, as the betrayed partner, manage all of the chaos that’s happening in our own hearts and minds and all of that. Let alone navigate that, like with a partner that just inherently with the addiction doesn’t necessarily have built in the skill sets to be able to connect emotionally with like another person even outside of like addiction and conflict, let alone when there’s conflict and addiction because of the, the hurtful and harmful behaviors that they’re engaging with. If, if that makes sense.

Brandon (00:16:21):
Yeah. And because they’re acting like a child throughout it too.

Breanna (00:16:23):
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. They, the therapist would be like, you’re gonna set boundaries with your husbands and they’re gonna act like they’re two years old,And then the women would come back, they’re like, oh, you’re right. LikeThat’s not a dig, but it, it does show just the emotional piece of it, how challenging that is

Brandon (00:16:40):
Because especially too, like I thought I had done so much work before getting married. Mm-Hmm. like specifically around pornography, I was like, okay, I’ve gone to counseling.

Fight The New Drug (00:16:50):
Mm-Hmm.

Brandon (00:16:51):
. I have been honest about it. Mm-Hmm. , like, I’ve had over 40 individual conversations with my support people, like really aired my dirty laundry.

Breanna (00:16:59):
Mm-Hmm.And like you had significant streaks of like sobriety too.

Brandon (00:17:02):
Totally. Yeah.

(00:17:03):
And I think just I didn’t understand that that I had to like keep showing up with that in a way. I thought there was like, okay, cool. I did enough work to where like, I’m good now and I can like move forward. And I never, like, I know I’ve heard so many Jews that were in my counseling group that had the thought of, oh, once I get married this issue will resolve itself because then there’s like a sexual outlet or something, you know? And that never crossed my mind at all. I was like, okay, once I get married, like there’s no reason for this thing to go away, so I need to like still like, have some sort of awareness about it. But I think there’s just so much of the like childhood trauma pieces for me that got triggered that sent me like mm-Hmm. Beyond my awareness that I wasn’t able to like show up as mm-Hmm. An actual man and husband in the relationship. Mm-Hmm. And so there were a lot of situations where I was reacting out of like a hurt little kid space. Mm-Hmm. And that really sucks to be married to someone that’s acting like a hurt little kid all the time.

Breanna (00:18:12):
. Yeah. And so for us too, you had mentioned like roles in it as well. Like I think the, there’s always gonna be some sort of like enmeshment that happens in a relationship or addiction is present. ’cause that’s part of the nature of addiction and the cycle that it create creates in the interpersonal relationships. But for us, we also work together and so we live and work together and spend 24 7 together

Brandon (00:18:32):
So, and at one point lived in a one bedroom apartment together.

Breanna (00:18:34):
Yeah.

Brandon (00:18:35):
It wasI think there was like a lot

Breanna (00:18:37):
Of a meh

Brandon (00:18:38):
One week I like left to go do this guy’s thing. And when I was there I was like, I’ve literally been with Breanna 24 7 for the last like eight days straight. Like there’s been, and we

Breanna (00:18:47):
Didn’t even realize it because that’s just how our life isBut with that, probably one of the most beautiful things that happened was just like an extreme me like almost exiting a lot of what people would typically think are supportive roles of a partner to their, their part to their spouse that is struggling with porn addiction. And so I had to really completely remove myself from a lot of those dynamics. And we almost, even though living in the same home, were living very like separate lives in that sense where we weren’t relying on each other emotionally, we physically for support, we were getting those needs met in other people and that helped break the enmeshment and then I think put us in our proper roles. But my role is healing. His role was healing, but also for trust building and reconciliation Yeah. With me too. And so, yeah.

Brandon (00:19:36):
Yeah. No, and that’s a big one because I think especially too for me, especially I having the A DHD like my propensities, the trauma piece, all of that the way that I’ve been a husband has been very, like, I’ve not thought ahead on a lot of things. And so I think that degree of like separation Mm-Hmm. and boundaries that Breanna was talking about really helped me just figure out how to meet my own needs in a way that I just was honestly clueless about. Mm-Hmm.That I think is very like, typical of I think a lot of people, I think the A DHD thing is super common with that. But that compounded with the betrayal piece too. It just created like more need for there to be space. Mm-Hmm. And yeah, and it like honestly was like Breanna making some of those boundaries was probably one of the things that like helped me the most be able to own my stuff for myself. Mm-Hmm. And I think that’s like man with addiction, like literally that’s the most important thing is that someone’s doing it because they want to, for their own reasons. Like

Breanna (00:20:44):
Recovery, doing recovery.

Brandon (00:20:45):
Yeah. Totally. Like obligation is not a long-term plan for sobriety or recovery in any regard. Yeah.

Fight The New Drug (00:20:51):
Breanna, do you feel comfortable sharing what some of those boundaries look like for you? Or ways that you took care of yourself and met kind of your needs? Just add some detail to what you’ve spoken about a little bit so far.

Breanna (00:21:04):
Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of ’em are really simple, practical things. And I think because Brandon mentioned like the A DHD piece, there’s a lot where he wasn’t able to think ahead on things. And so I ended up, I I was already thinking ahead and so then I was already preemptively doing things for him. And so the ball never got like dropped in certain ways to be like, oh, I should probably do this different type of deal. So it was simple stuff because we work and live together and we’re in schools primarily. It’s like, Hey, I’m not gonna pack his lunch. You know, like, I’m not gonna meal prep for the both of us. I’m just gonna meal prep for myself. I

Brandon (00:21:37):
Know. Then I was like, wait, why is there no food leftover? What the heck is going on here? , we

Breanna (00:21:42):
Just had candy to eat that we throw at the kids in the class. , it was

Brandon (00:21:45):
The situation

Breanna (00:21:46):
For sure. But she did survive on that in cold brew for quite a while, which was impressive.

Brandon (00:21:50):
But it actually did work for a minute. Yeah.

Breanna (00:21:53):
so yeah, so simple things like that all the way to like with almost like chores that like, I do this and he does that. Like if it gets to a place where like, I’m uncomfortable with it and he has still hasn’t done it, like I’m not gonna do it. And so it was just really small things like that. But those small things can have the potential to create a lot of conflict too. And so those small things really expose. They agitated a lot of things.

Brandon (00:22:19):
Well, and those small things like that’s, it’s the mundane regular things that you do every day, which is most people’s lives. Mm-Hmm. like, you know, it’s not the like highlight reels on social media. It’s like those little things. And so when those things are constantly unmanageable Mm-Hmm. , like that’s really

Breanna (00:22:37):
Difficult. Yeah. So there’s just like a lot of roles that I was playing in in our relationship, kind of picking up the pieces that like a parent would typically think of or do for like a kid. And not saying that Brandon’s like a child by like any means but just because I was preemptively thinking of those things, it didn’t even give him the chance to do those things for himself. And it’s not like he didn’t do those things when he was like single and living on his own. You know, like, so he, he’s not incapable

(00:23:03):
Totally. It was just that the dynamic that our relationship had within it. And so and then even emotionally, I had to really take a step back. I had to not, it was almost like for a season I almost couldn’t even show like empathy or compassion to a certain degree. ’cause it felt like I was being asked to take on this emotional role of like, caretaking and that wasn’t my role. And so I had to almost, in certain conflicts being like, Hey, like I get that this is upsetting. You kind of did this to yourselfAnd so, and I would like go by myself and I would like cry for him and I would feel all of those things. But in the moment I knew that like my role wasn’t to like meet that emotional need. He needed other people in his life to be able to do that. And I needed other people in my life to fill in the gaps where he wasn’t yet able to meet my emotional needs. I don’t know how you wanna

Brandon (00:23:54):
Describe that. Yeah, no, no. I, that’s so good. ’cause I think Yeah. Especially, which I think a lot of couples can like tend to struggle with this to some degree. But especially just because we are in spaces where we’re like together all the time. We just didn’t have significant connections with people outside of each other.

Breanna (00:24:12):
Not enough

Brandon (00:24:13):
Anyway. And not enough in the way that I think we had while we were single.

Breanna (00:24:16):
Oh, yeah.

Brandon (00:24:17):
and then, yeah. And so it really like the, that really helped me figure out how to get emotional needs met Mm-Hmm. from other dudes and like actually build more significant relationships with people that I actually care about and like want to have more significant relationships with. And and have like, just the level of maturity because man, the addiction, that is like one big piece too, is it really just limited my like emotional maturity in a lot of ways where like, even when I’m disclosing that I had slips I’m like not able to be present for Breanna at all. And I was yeah, just really emotional myself and like wanting like care for myself ’cause I’m like covered in shame and all that stuff. And and just not, I didn’t understand what my role was early on. And I think one big thing too that a lot of these that I went through the therapy group with, like had this experience too, you, but is that they use their wives as their accountability and that’s like

(00:25:24):
Literally so unfair to the wives. Because they like shouldn’t have to bear the burden of like an addict’s like in this situation or husband if it’s a wife that’s struggling like Mm-Hmm.But the partner like shouldn’t have to bear the burden of like being the accountability. Like the addict should be the one that’s taking responsibility and saying, Hey, I’m putting these accountability pieces in place and this is what it looks like. What information would be helpful to you? Mm-Hmm, hmm. , what do you want to know? Like, what would make you feel safe and secure? As I’m like trying to recover and rebuild trust, you know, and I, the low hanging fruit that I took was just like, Hey, can you like, make me feel better now after I slipped? You know? And it’s just like,

Breanna (00:26:07):
Feels gross.

Brandon (00:26:08):
It’s really unfair, honestly. Yeah.

Breanna (00:26:10):
Yeah. And I also too, what I had to learn was that boundaries weren’t things that I demanded of him. They were things that like I could control. And so instead of being like, oh, you need to do this, that, and the other, like, that’s not a boundary. I can make a request. And so what I started to do was be specific in my requests that specific things I needed that were very practical and straightforward. Like, this is what it looks like to, for me things that I need to rebuild safety and reconciliation between the two of us and rebuild trust. And then if you don’t engage that this is what I’m going to do. And that could be like an emotional decision that I make. That could be a practical thing that happens. But it was really learning like, okay, what are my options in this?

(00:26:50):
and then also knowing that like I had to be able to live with the consequences of my boundaries too. And if I wasn’t ready to live with the consequence of my boundary, like I couldn’t threaten like, oh, if you don’t get sober, I’m gonna divorce you. If I actually didn’t want a divorce and didn’t, you know, totally wanna do that, I can’t threaten that if I’m not willing to like carry it out. And so that was definitely something that like I had to learn too. And it’s been a, a lot of trial and error in figuring out

Brandon (00:27:13):
You got really good at

Breanna (00:27:14):
It. All those things,

Brandon (00:27:14):
Things, all the boundaries. Thanks. Yeah.And I think one note on boundaries too is that one thing that was helpful for me to learn about them is that like you said, it’s something that someone puts on themselves, but then also the point of the boundary is to enhance and create connection. Yeah. Not to like sever connection. And I think that’s where, especially early on I was like really confused about that. ’cause I was like, oh, okay, I guess you don’t wanna be connected if like, this is what the boundary is. And realizing now like, okay, a lot of those things actually help put me in a situation to show up and like be more of an adult in a lot of ways to where like we can actually have connection now. Yeah.

Fight The New Drug (00:27:56):
Yeah. That’s so well said. And I think you both touched on so many things that I think are such an important part of this conversation. Often when we talk about Pornography’s impact on relationships, I think we get really hung up on the pornography specifically and not all of the other pieces of the relationship that both pornography can negatively impact, but also that, you know, working on those pieces of the relationship can help combat this this struggle with pornography. So I’m curious, I would love to hear both of your perspective. What advice would you give to someone who maybe suspects their partner is struggling with porn addiction or habit or, or knows that their partner is, is struggling? What advice would you give?

Brandon (00:28:41):
Good question. Actually. I’ll let you go first. Okay.

Breanna (00:28:45):
first it’s not about you. The porn viewing porn addiction, compulsion, whatever it is, like it is all, like Brandon was just talking about, it’s all the emotional turmoil within themselves. And that is their coping mechanism. That’s the way that they’re handling their emotions and the mismanaging of those emotions. And so, although the feeling of it being about us and the shame that we take on that of from that behavior is like legitimate it’s also not necessarily the truth at the same time, if that makes sense. I would also say that there is a spectrum when it comes to pornography. It can be a habit, it can be a compulsion, it can be like a full on addiction. And I believe that if you suspect your partner is involved with pornography, you deserve to know the full extent of what’s happening.

(00:29:30):
and so I would really encourage like a therapeutic disclosure in that if possible. And so I’ve heard some people that have felt confident and stable enough to confront their partner on with it on their own. And their partner had a temperament to be able to respond in a way that obviously not perfect, still a conflict but in a way that like allowed them to like seek help from there. Others have felt more secure actually seeking out like a therapeutic resource first and then bringing their partner into that process. And so we recommend that partners seek out a CSAT certified sex addiction therapist. They know how to do those disclosures really well. And those disclosures are really where you’re not getting the details that you don’t need to know, but you’re getting the details that you do need to know that’s impactful to the relationship.

(00:30:18):
and so because you also have, depending on the extent of the porn addiction too, like you, you’ve got different levels of it. Like it can be really vanilla porn, it can be some pretty dark stuff. It can be even illegal things. And so you deserve to know what you’re actually dealing with so you can make the best decision. I would also encourage too, that there’s, if, if it’s not harmful to you, and if it’s not illegal, don’t feel this pressure that you have to make an immediate decision about it. Especially if you’re married to I know that there’s some therapists that encourage like, Hey, for the first year, if it’s not directly harmful to you and it’s not illegal, then don’t make any big decisions. Don’t, you know, like file for divorce right away or things like that. Seek out your healing.

(00:30:57):
Give him the opportunity to seek out his healing. Do that like actually separately in the sense of like, you’re, you’re not doing it for each other. But you’re, you’re, you have your own tracks of healing and recovery so that you can, ’cause either way you have a choice for healing whether or not that relationship stays intact. That’s the journey. And so if there is desire for that person then give yourself that freedom. Don’t worry about other people’s judgment on it. And then it’s also, you deserve help as well. And so there’s a lot of resources out there. I know fight the new drug. You’ve promoted like bloom for women before. There’s csat s there’s 12 steps if you can’t afford like an actual full on therapy. I have one friend she did the group therapy that we were in.

(00:31:38):
a lot of very intensive therapeutic like betrayal, trauma recovery. But then she also did the 12 steps and she had such a unique perspective that she brought into the group the 12 steps. Not that it’s like completely different, but the focuses are unique. ’cause it’s not a, the therapeutic space. And so that is that was beautiful to watch. And those are online as well, like through Zoom and things like that. And so easily accessible. They have ’em multiple days a week and multiple different times. And so, so yeah, I think that would probably be, if you suspect your partner struggling, I think that would be kind of what I would say.

Brandon (00:32:09):
Yeah. Yeah. I would say if you suspect your partners struggling or know that they are I think the disclosure piece is a big deal. Mm-Hmm. , I think being able to get awareness over what’s going on is so important. ’cause you know, the addiction is what cuddling, cunning tricking. Mm-Hmm. and baffling. And it just someone that’s in addiction, especially, like if it has not been dealt with and has, there’s not been like an inventory type thing done for that addict yet. There’s probably some level of denial going on Mm-Hmm. Over what’s really happening. And not even maliciously, but just the denial over like, man, I wanna be a good person so bad that like I have to change reality a little bit. Mm-Hmm. So that like, I’m not completely like crushed by shame. Mm-Hmm. Which we can have a lot of empathy for that, but what happens is with that, in reality it can be pretty manipulative too. Yeah. And so being able to like have some sort of like inventory and disclosure so you know, what’s happening I think is a really big first step.

Breanna (00:33:16):
Because if your partner is anything like Brandon and is a good hearted, genuine like man, then they’re gonna be as honest as they know how to be. Mm-Hmm.But addicts don’t necessarily know how to be honestAnd so you might get multiple disclosures. You might get, you know, you might feel like you’re being lied to when in reality like Brandon’s saying they’re doing the best that they can, but it’s not necessarily like what the partner needs itself.

Brandon (00:33:37):
Totally, totally. Yeah. There’s, I was, you just reminded me there was this like one fight we got into like, on the way to like a couple’s counseling session and

Breanna (00:33:46):
Most of them happened then.

Brandon (00:33:47):
It was like, I wasn’t telling her something that she wanted to know ’cause I thought it would cause a fight. Oh, I remember this one. This

Breanna (00:33:52):
Was bad. Yeah. It was a good thing about therapy

Brandon (00:33:55):
. It was literally like, we were driving separate ’cause we had different places to go to. And it was literally like, as we’re going there, this thing blew up. And so we brought that in and then

Breanna (00:34:03):
And to her therapist talk about,

Brandon (00:34:04):
And like Breanna explained her side and then I went to explain my side and I was like, yeah, therapist. Like obviously can you see like how wrong she is in this? Like, and then she therapist was just like, Hmm, okay. Yeah. So you’re like avoiding the situation or something. I can’t remember.

Breanna (00:34:21):
You’re you’re, you’re managing her emotions.

Brandon (00:34:23):
No, no, no. She like eased into it really nicely. She did though. Oh. Just like some soft comments first of like, oh yeah, that’s kind of nice. And then yeah, she went into like, oh, so you’re like manipulating managing like her emotionsAnd then I literally in that moment I was like,

Breanna (00:34:36):
Oh yeah, you were in

Brandon (00:34:37):
Denial. This is news to me. , , this is like new information I’m right now receiving.

Breanna (00:34:43):
We’re like, permitting the truth is a lie and I’m not lying. Like it was

Brandon (00:34:47):
So Totally. And so like with that, there’s like, addiction brings a certain level of like, falseness that they legitimately cannot see.

Fight The New Drug (00:34:58):
Yeah.

Brandon (00:34:59):
And so I think like for partners struggling with, like, figuring out what to do with their addict it’s just like, it’s a bear. But I think there’s, if the addict is willing to take the steps Yeah. There for sure is 1000% hope. Yeah. And even if they’re saying they’re not willing to take the steps in a moment, like it might be the emotion coming up Mm-Hmm. , you know, if there’s like consistent behavior or like even desire towards it. Mm-Hmm.There is definitely a path for healing.

Fight The New Drug (00:35:27):
Yeah. Brandon, for someone who is struggling but is maybe afraid to reach out for help, do you have any advice that you would give to them?

Brandon (00:35:37):
Hmm. Yeah. Good question, man. I’m even just like thinking about being in that space myself, having had been in that space myself for so long and just thinking about those moments of feeling alone and like so dirty and just gross and perverted and like there’s nothing I can do to get better. No one’s gonna understand. No one’s gonna actually be able to like if anyone finds out like that, I’ll actually die. Or

(00:36:11):
Like, it’s just such an intense, like I, the, this secret is survival and that’s definitely a space that I lived in. And I think what I’ve come to learn at this point is that true strength is in vulnerability and it is not comfortable by any means, but it’s a l like reaching out for support is a lot less uncomfortable than dealing with the repercussions of the addiction and that loneliness. I 1000% would choose that any day, like the discomfort of like having to be honest about something that’s like awkward or uncomfortable. And man, I even like, back to when I did share like initially with all those support people in my life, it was interesting ’cause I just was really unsure. Like, I remember when I first started reaching out for support I didn’t know like literally how to go about it.

(00:37:16):
So those initial conversations I would just type a text message out and then I’d be like, oh my gosh, am I gonna send this? Like, and it would just say like, Hey, I want to talk to you later about something. And because my thought was like, okay, if I send that, then they’re gonna ask about it later. And there’s literally no going back. And so I would like stress out and like hear the clock ticking in my head as I’m looking at this text message. And then I would like send it and chuck my phone. And I was like, oh my gosh, there’s no going back. It was like such a big deal. I remember driving to some of those conversations and just like, is there any way I can get out of this right now? like, please God, I hope I get in a car accident.

(00:37:52):
Or something like tragicIt was just like so freaking scary though, you know, just to like, and those conver I was so awkward in those conversations. I didn’t really know like even what to say or how to say it. But every single person met me with so much compassion and grace and like the, it always landed in a place of like, Hey, like I’m here for you. Like, can I help you at all? Like, is there anything you need? And that’s like, man, I I, and now I realize I didn’t, I wasn’t giving people the chance to show up for me in the ways that they’re actually capable of. And I think there’s a lot of really good people out there that really wanna support their friends that I think myself. And I think a lot of other addicts or people struggling would be surprised at how willing their support people are to help ’em.

Fight The New Drug (00:38:48):
Mm-Hmm.Yeah. That’s so well said. And I think a good reminder for anyone too, if they really don’t feel like they have someone in their own life there is always the option of a counselor or a therapist or clinical support of someone who maybe that feels safer for some people, but just a reminders that there’s always an option of, of being able to reach out to someone. You both kind of touched on this earlier, but can you speak a little bit about the connection between childhood trauma and addiction? like particularly how unresolved trauma can lead to behaviors like substance abuse or porn addiction. Yeah,

Brandon (00:39:24):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don’t think, I don’t know if addiction would exist without childhood trauma.Yeah. I think that’s the argument I would take on it. Just because, you know, addiction is not a product of someone wanting something too much and they just like can’t get enough of it type thing. Addiction, like Breanna mentioned earlier, like clinically has taken a definition of being an intimacy disorder. Mm-Hmm. , which means that someone doesn’t have the skills to be able to interact relationally and get their needs met. And so when they feel moments of pain, instead of reaching out to connection and relationship to resolve that pain they turn inwards and like try and willpower through it. And once that doesn’t work, like it always continues to like not work at some point then they start reaching towards their advice. Whether it’s drugs, sex, al alcohol, food even.

(00:40:18):
Mm-Hmm.And so the, the reasons why someone doesn’t have those skills is I think a really good question. And I think that’s something that as I started to really engage my story and peel back those layers, man, there is you know, nothing happens in a vacuum. No one’s decisions happen in a vacuum. No one finds themselves in as an adult and they’re just like, oh yeah, I’m just suddenly an adult. Like, there’s a whole history that led them to that place. There’s narratives, there’s all these different things that like shape us. And I think it’s so funny because there’s so many conversations that I’ve listened to of either like just lots of different conversations where people were like, oh yeah, I had a great childhood. It was totally fine. But yeah, my parents got divorced and then like

Breanna (00:41:11):
Someone

Brandon (00:41:11):
Died. Someone died and like this other person went to jail and it’s just, but it was great. I was like running around outside and like had a lot of fun. And it’s like, like those are significant. That’s like really significant. And yeah. And not that like, and I think what can get scary sometimes is that, oh man, if I think that my childhood was traumatic, that means that it wasn’t good and it was all bad and it takes away from the good things. And I think that’s one really big skill I think we both got from therapy a lot, is being able to hold both, both things at the same time and kind of being the grade where mm-Hmm. I’m not making a judgment about like, oh, because abuse was in my childhood, everything was bad. Or because my parents missed this need that I had emotionally as a kid. Like they’re terrible parents.

(00:41:59):
That’s not true at all. They’re great parents. But there also were needs that I had that still didn’t get met that left me in a situation where I wasn’t able to figure it out until crap hit the fan as an adult, you know? And so being able to trace that back.

Breanna (00:42:15):
Well, and then there’s the maladaptive like coping mechanisms, which could be porn, which could be drugs, which could be addictive in that. Yeah,

Brandon (00:42:22):
Totally. And so, like a young person, like a kid, I think it’s actually really crazy to think about that people will survive. Like, people keep finding ways to survive even if it’s not the healthiest way. And I think that’s a really compassionate way to look at Mm-Hmm. struggles from the past is like, for me, some kid that grew up struggling with pornography, like as much as like, I hate that that’s a part of my story and like, really wish it wasn’t there. There’s a piece that’s like, man, Brandon, like you figured out how to get by it, like wasn’t the best. It like got you through a season and you’re alive still. And so how do you make better decisions at this point?

Breanna (00:43:02):
Well, it’s like you can be proud of that little boy for how he chose to survive, even if some of the tools that he had weren’t beneficial to him or, you know, but it’s just like you can still be proud of the little boy for like, getting through like of like, oh, like a little boy should never have to experience sexual abuse and yet you figured out how to stay here and, you know, and still had to like succeed in life. And so you can still be proud of yourself in that. ’cause I also like trauma essentially is the disintegration within oneself. And so when you experience trauma, there’s like a break in how you understand yourself and how you understand other people. And that’s either someone like, did something harmful to you, like in Brandon’s story or that is a need that was not getting met or a need that get, did not get met in the way that you needed.

(00:43:49):
And so I think that trauma can be big t traumas and little t traumas. And as we develop coping mechanisms that actually numb out and reinforce that disintegration, that’s where things like pornography addiction can come into play. Because I know there’s been studies of it’s like, it’s not just like sexual abuse that can lead to pornography addiction. More often than not there’s like an emotional rupture that’s happened within the family system and that is much more indicative of someone like with porn addiction than not. In the same way for like women with betrayal trauma, they are much more, someone of that’s been sexually betrayed is much more likely to develop that PTSD, that betrayal trauma if they’ve had significant traumas in the past versus if not, because there’s like this almost map of how you do life and how you do relationship that will reinforce kind of one or the other.

Brandon (00:44:37):
Totally. Totally. No, that’s so good. And I think the other thought I had too was just how much like neurologically we are born into the world looking for someone, looking for us. This quote from Kurt Thompson, it’s so good. So good. And just that like, you know, like Brina was kind of mentioning that like mapping element that’s happening if we have grown up in a space to where like there has not been a certain amount of attention that we’re like looking for it. Like she was saying, it disorganizes the brain and disorganizes the map for how we navigate relationships. And so instead of like specifically for the addiction, it’s like, okay, my map now says like, oh, when I feel pain, like I have to go this way and then this way. And that’s where I find the coping addiction piece. Mm-Hmm. instead of navigating towards healthiness. And so yeah, being able to like engage one story I think is really, yeah, it definitely never ends. But I think there definitely is a point that I remember just being in the thick of like in the therapy program we went through was broken up into a few phases and the last one was like addressing childhood trauma. Mm-Hmm. and I, we both spent, I spent

Breanna (00:45:51):
A couple years,

Brandon (00:45:51):
A couple years in that space on a weekly basis Yeah. In a group setting, like engaging my story and other dude’s stories. And there’s kind of a point where it’s like, does this ever get better ? And it does. It definitely like there’s a way to, and that’s one thing that I think, you know, even the question of what does healing look like, I think is a really interesting question. Does healing mean that I’m just good and I never have problems or pain anymore?

Promo (00:46:17):
Mm-Hmm. and I’m just good to go ’cause that would be like kind of cool. But it’s also I think not what most people’s experience of life is. And I think a therapist had told me like, healing, you know, can maybe look more like when the pain, the struggles, those things come up, you’ve reorganized your map in a way where you know what to do with it. Mm-Hmm. to put yourself in the situations that you want to be in. Yeah.

Breanna (00:46:39):
I think that’s why we love in our programs, just that mantra of your past is not to define you. Because it doesn’t have to define, it doesn’t define you and it also doesn’t have to determine your future too.

Fight The New Drug (00:46:48):
Yeah. That’s so well said. How do you address this topic specifically childhood trauma childhood trauma with relation to addiction recovery? How do you address this specifically within your advocacy work at Red Light Rebellion?

Breanna (00:47:00):
Yeah, so we want to be able to give students just basic tools. So in our like recovery work we first focused on like understanding what was going on. So the education coupled with the grounding. So for both the the one struggling with addiction and the betrayed partner we’re both very dysregulated in our nervous systems. We’re acting out in ways like even the partner’s gonna get like maladaptive like coping mechanisms, right? And so we’re learning like how do we regulate our nervous systems, make the decisions we want to make and be able to make the next best decision for ourselves. And so we try to give students like really simple tools for that of like, Hey, let’s identify some shame stories. Let’s figure out what has happened in our lives. How did that make us feel? and then what is the truth behind that?

(00:47:46):
The fact that you have intrinsic value that you matter no matter what, that nothing anyone you can do to you. Anything that you can do can ever change your value. Mm-Hmm. And so what are now the stories, the narratives, the map that we can operate out of knowing that that’s true versus thinking that what we do and what others have done us has defined us. And so we try to give them just really simple tools like that or frameworks and then it’s like, who are the support people in your life? Because we can’t do that on our own. Like as humans, we need one another. Like we’re not these isolated silos, like just the way our brain works, like neurologically. Like we know who we are based on the people around us. And so it’s like, who are the support people that can help reinforce those affirmations to you?

(00:48:28):
And so we try to give them that. And then we also encourage some of those next steps of like, Hey, if you are struggling here are resources. Do you need therapeutic resources? Do you maybe need an online community because maybe you’re still plucking up the courage to talk to someone in real life and maybe getting in an online community will, you know, like help you first. With the addiction stuff, we always recommend fight the new drug. Like you join Fortify, like all of those amazing tools. And then it’s like if you do have the resources for the therapy, there’s those things as well. And so it’s like, for us in the simplified version and the limited time that we have, it’s like cool. Like how do we figure out what our triggers are, figure out why that’s there, the story we’re telling ourselves and the support people in which to help combat some of that stuff.

Fight The New Drug (00:49:07):
So Well said. Obviously you’re interacting a lot with youth in your work. Can you explain how exposure to pornography at a young age grooms youth, both as potential buyers and also as victims of exploitation?

Brandon (00:49:20):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. We’re seeing I think when we were in DC the other month, they were even saying they, the average age of exposure to porn is between eight and 11 years old right now. And so even just what that does to someone in their, like cognitive prefrontal cortex it like starts to diminish their ability to make moral decisions and like have a moral compass. And that compounded with like so many kids that are growing up on pornography, the desensitation, however you say that word is thanks. is yeah. Is significant as well too. Mm-Hmm.You know, we’re seeing just a lot of like cultural pieces too. Like you kind of mentioned Natalie, just the it’s so common for the high schools we go to, to see kids in like Playboy merch. Mm-Hmm.Just to hear the brands that they’re into or the music artists that they’re listening to and

Breanna (00:50:18):
Or the influencers like Andrew Tate that are promoting all of these ideas. You know, it’s like sex sell, sex is transactional. It’s just for like your own pleasure. Its empowerment to like send nudes and to like reveal your body sexually. Like all of those things. It’s just like the cultural grooming and pornography mingled in with a lot of these other, like non like, like porn pornography. Like, it’s still like pornographic, but it’s not, you know, like the straight out thing. Like all of those. It’s like these poor kids. Like, it’s like how do you figure out, how do you navigate all of that, you know?

Brandon (00:50:50):
Yeah. Like how do we expect a different outcome Yeah. Than what’s happening with young people.

Breanna (00:50:54):
And so I know Dr. Gail d she talks about a story of in interviewing a man who was in prison for a sexually abusing his, I think it was his stepdaughter. And she asked him about it. And he is like, oh, well, like the culture did most of that for me. And so he’s just talking about these narratives, like usually predators. They’re trying to get kids to like violate their boundaries, especially their sexual boundaries. And so the, what’s happening on a cultural level is that society’s doing that for these predators already. And so if it’s a pimp coming in and convincing a girl to send a nude or put it on OnlyFans or to go dance at this party, or to sleep with this guy for money, they’re framing that all as empowerment. Well, that’s what the culture is doing. And so it doesn’t make, like, it makes more sense to this generation than it did in prior generations.

(00:51:41):
And so the, the pimps, the traffickers, the predators don’t have to do as much work. And then on like the buyer side of it, not only can like, well, we know one study that showed like, I think it’s 39% of sex buyers self-identified porn addiction as the influencing their sex buying, let alone all the others that don’t self-identify thatTotally. And so it’s like porn is tricking you into thinking that this is how it is, it’s reducing sex to just one way, one sided. And so, and it’s all self-gratification. And so you just get, whether it’s truly like perpetuation of an addiction or if it’s just the framework that someone has for sex, like even just the buyer side of it pornography is, is really, really fueling.

Brandon (00:52:24):
Yeah. And even like one of my friends that I knew from a while back, another friend sent a link and it was a picture of his mugshot and it went on to describe how he like was messaging what he thought was a 14-year-old girl online and ended up being an undercover cop. And I think just

Breanna (00:52:40):
Trying to purchase sex from her.

Brandon (00:52:41):
Yeah. And I think just try reading some of the details about the extent that he went to, to set that up was really like, man, this sucks so bad. ’cause the dude has, I know he’s such a good hearted person. But it’s, it was really thinking back to some conversations with him, it was very obvious to me that like, man pornography like sent him on a direction Mm-Hmm. that set him up for to, for this. And I think that’s where it’ll be interesting. ’cause in one sense with his situation, it’s like, man, he was a victim to pornography and the influence of that. But what we see in a lot of situations is that at a certain point, victims can also become the perpetrators. And I think that’s one of the saddest parts of injustice as well too. And and yeah, it’s just unfair again with the whole thing.

Fight The New Drug (00:53:35):
Yeah. You mentioned a lot of issues that youth specifically are being impacted in all of these ways because of pornography, because of grooming. Can you speak a little bit about to what you are seeing when you interact with youth, the issues around deep fakes and sextortion and teen dating violence? Can you speak a little bit to those issues?

Breanna (00:53:56):
Yeah. We actually did a post intervention post post-incident intervention at a school this past semester. It was a middle school in a pretty decent like part of town, like very involved parents. And so not these like huge, you know, like what we would typically say is like high risk factors. And they were struggling so much with their kids leaking nudes of each other non consensually law enforcement had to get involved in it. And then students creating deep fakes actually of themselves and passing it around. And so what we’re finding is the normalization of nudes is just opening kids up to being exploited in a way that we’ve never had that like, level of vulnerability before. And so with extortion, it’s like, you’ve got this person that’s catfishing this kid, manipulating them to send a nude and then blackmailing them in order to get money or, or other things.

(00:54:46):
and so, and, and we’re seeing these, these kids are so ashamed and so overcome by this, like, it was heartbreaking at the conference last month to hear about kids that are literally deleting themselves some within six hours of the threat still starting. And so we’re seeing that the normalization of nudes is something that kids are now starting to engage in highly risky behavior. And they’re not being given the information to know that. And so that’s what we try to do, where it’s like, I love what fight the new drug is of like not putting like morals or, you know, like ideologies into it. It’s like, Hey, we wanna give you the facts so that you can make the best decision for yourself. And that’s really, we’ve been inspired by you guys in that. And that’s what we try to continue to do with kids too in, in the sphere of influence that we have.

(00:55:32):
and so what we’re seeing is students engaging in that way and acting out in those ways. And so it’s just putting them in, in a space that is just like so dangerous. And so we really believe that if something’s harmful, they deserve to know about it so they can make the best, best decision for themselves. And so in that situation, we had done trainings for the students to expose not just the dangers of passing the nudes, but also those cultural messages that students are receiving as well. So we talked about the normalization of pornography, we talked about like Andrew Tate and like what he’s normalizing with all of it. And then we did a conversation with parents of like, Hey, these are, this is what’s going on. This is, you know, how we can hopefully keep our kids safe from all of that.

Brandon (00:56:13):
well said.

Fight The New Drug (00:56:15):
and I think some people might be in surprised to hear that that was at a middle school that happened. And I think it’s just a good reminder that, you know, kids are experiencing so much more often, so much younger than we as adults like to think that they are. And also I think we should give them more credit. They’re, they’re so much more capable often than we think they are as well. So to be able to give them the facts, to give them the information to make an informed decision, so many of them will if they have all of the information available to them. So I love the work that you’re doing to help on these issues. How does Red Light Rebellion approach raising awareness and preventing trafficking in schools and communities?

Brandon (00:57:00):
Yeah. Yeah. So we talk about with students what it is, what it looks like, and how to stay safe. And so a lot of it one of the probably bigger myths that I think we continue to bust is that sex trafficking happens through kidnapping. Mm-Hmm. in the sense that the idea is like the movie taken where it’s like a snatch and grab someone just literally outta nowhere steals someone and runs away with them. What actually happens with the stories that we know of sex trafficking that have happened in real life is that there’s some sort of relational element where a pimp or trafficker is building some sort of connection and bridge, and there’s warning signs throughout that process. And so there could be a point of like force or being taken eventually, but there’s initially like some sort of rapport building that’s happening that encompasses like a grooming process that has red flags. And so that’s where a lot of our program is talking with students through what the grooming process is like and what those red flags are.

Breanna (00:58:04):
Yeah. And so we really focus on that relational recruitment. And so our programs help seventh through 12th grade students know what porn, what sex trafficking is, what it looks like, how to stay safe, and then really a addressing those underlying root vulnerabilities too of the mental illness, the relationship dynamic. And then obviously like the demand prevention. And so we do this in live presentations. We’re based in Phoenix, Arizona. And so that’s what we’ve been doing for the last 14 years is mostly local and schools. We have like a full classroom presentation. Brandon’s an audio engineer, so we bring in speakers and a subwoofer and get sound complaints. And we did at the conference last month too.

Fight The New Drug (00:58:41):
Yeah.

Breanna (00:58:42):
Brandon’s job is not done until we have a sound complaint. Exactly. And so kids are like walking into the class, there’s like trap music playing. It’s like really fun. And, but it’s also very engaging. We’re engaging their stories. We’re trying to take the peer reviewed scientific research and package it in a way that feels just relevant to the students. So we don’t really share like facts and stats. We wanna give them a visceral lived experience of prevention. And so we do that in the live format. But we, in 2018 started averaging about 450 presentations a year. And so we have since started transitioning to a digital program. And so to be able to scale and meet the, and so that digital program has been really fun. We did a pilot last school year with it, got amazing feedback. And so now we’re in the process of building out the rest of that content. We already have districts in Arizona that are putting us through the approval process for it. And then we’re looking to launch nationally next year. And so that’s been a really fun and exciting process because we’ll have not just a student program that can be facilitated like in schools or in churches or other community agencies, but we’ll also have a full parent program as well as a full educator program too.

Fight The New Drug (00:59:52):
Congratulations. That’s amazing. And also, we’re so glad that this resource exists and that you’re both doing the work that you’re doing with you to help really make a difference on these issues. I wanna ask as we wrap up, how has working with young people been encouraging to you as you do this work that’s often heavy or obviously addressing a heavy subject matter, but how has working with young people specifically been encouraging?

Brandon (01:00:19):
Yeah, good question. I think man, it’s definitely, I think there’s been several touch points that have been like throughout the years where I, there’s just so much for any job that goes on behind the scenes from like what people actually see. And so I think getting to those moments where we’re actually like in front of young people and like get to hang out with them and just like talk with them and hear some of their stories. And I think one real big piece that I’ve been encouraged by is just seeing a lot of the courage that young people have. I think, you know, I always think like, oh man, had I been in high school and if something like this like came to my school, how would I have would’ve responded to it? Mm-Hmm.And obviously, I don’t know. But I don’t know if I would’ve had as much courage as a lot of these young people that are like sharing

(01:01:15):
Their stories, stories, bring things into the light and going to their support people, and then messaging us later of like, Hey, I talked to my mom and dad about this stuff, or my grandma, or like and are like taking steps to have the lives that they want to at a point that I think is kind of uncommon. Mm-Hmm. a lot of, I think it’s just easy as a young person just to kind of like go through the motions and do whatever you want and just like think about like, oh, I’ll just deal with consequences later. And so I think I’m always encouraged. Yeah, exactly. Always encouraged to see young people that are yeah, just willing to do work. Do the work, yeah. Engage their stories and stuff.

Breanna (01:01:53):
So, because we’ve had students come to realize that they had experienced abuse and didn’t realize that before our program we’ve had students that have disclosed that they do struggle with pornography addiction for the first time. Some of ’em have like shared these like secrets and these, this pain with us for the first time ever. And so

Fight The New Drug (01:02:09):
Yeah,

Breanna (01:02:09):
Seeing that courage is just so amazing to us. And then I think I, one of like, the best pieces for me is just seeing how fun young people are. Like I love for real, like they’re hard years, but I like love junior high and high school, like personally, like I had just like a ton of fun with friends and just like, it’s just such like a sweet spot in life. ’cause you got all these responsibilities or all the, this like freedom, but not all the responsibilities of like adulthood. And so it’s just like fun to see their creativity, the questions that they ask. It’s like, what, what would make you, what would prompt that like, thought to come up in your brain? But it’s like a really good question. Right? and so, and, and then even the ones that have the courage to give us pushback, like one student was

Brandon (01:02:50):
Like, it was so fun.

Breanna (01:02:50):
He was like, Hey, so if you’re telling us that porn’s bad and we shouldn’t be having like sex as teenagers, like what do you expect us to do, like with all these hormones and desires and all this stuff? And so it’s like, that’s a wonderful question. We’re not here morally to tell you what to do, but like there’s, you know, like, let’s, let’s get to the underlying presumption that like, sex is a need and it’s necessary in our lives. Right? So it’s like dialogue that one. And so it’s just really fun to see students like engage and interact come to life and then show up for each other too. One student got super emotional sharing about a pain point with like a family member totally broke down in the middle of class. Thank God we had done so much group therap , because

(01:03:25):
We were able to navigate that in a way. And like her friends like just really stepped up and showed up for her. We were able to navigate in a way, and like the, the class didn’t make it awkward. Like they were able to like navigate that with us and help us guide it, like, help help us, help them guide it all. And so, yeah, it’s just like a really beautiful thing. And then what’s cool, I think probably this is my favorite part, , sorry. We, so we give students these red flag hearts every single presentation that we, we go to. And so they know the warning signs of a victim of trafficking as well as a trafficker or pimp with a hotline number on it. And I can’t tell you how many messages we have gotten from students from those red flag cards that they have actually been able to recognize a trafficking situation that they were either vulnerable to or their friend was vulnerable to.

(01:04:10):
So like, one of the first messages we got was of a student who had been, who was talking to a guy on Snapchat for a few months. As soon as she turned 18, he started asking her for nudes, told her he would pay her. She’s like, that’s sketch. That sounds like the thing Red Light Rebellion talked about. Well, she had kept her red flag card in her wallet for three years. She took it out, realized the guy had all these warning signs, blocked him, then messaged us and was like, thank you so much for coming to my school and possibly saving my life. And she even admitted, she’s like, I really didn’t even pay attention. Like I should have probably , you know, so she was even like more of like a disengaged student and which you always get those, and yet it still had such a huge impact.

(01:04:44):
so I’m proud of her for that. But then we’ve also gotten stories from students. One student last year messaged us, he’s like, Hey, I still have my red flag card. I was able to recognize my friend was in a dangerous situation and help her get out of it because of the red flag card. And so it’s just like, man, students are really stepping up to the plate. Another student, it wasn’t a trafficking situation, but recognized that her friend was being groomed by a mutual friend’s like father and so was able, like just knew the steps to take for it. But she, that she had was able to recognize those things because of our program, because we, we educate on the relational recruitment, that kind of grooming happens in all sorts of predatorial behavior. So she was able to apply the knowledge of trafficking to a situation of just like a sexual predator and be able to help her friend and get law enforcement involved before anything happened. So I think that’s what’s like really encouraging. It’s like the courage for them to engage with stories and then the courage for them to like speak up when they actually see the warning signs.

Fight The New Drug (01:05:38):
Yeah. No, and that’s so encouraging for us, us to hear. So thank you for sharing that. Because you mentioned this, can you share with our listeners what are the early warning signs that someone might be a target of trafficking and what can individuals do to protect themselves and others?

Breanna (01:05:53):
Yeah, so for a victim of trafficking, they’re gonna, these warning signs are like in combination. So they kind of all work together. And so one isn’t indicative of like, oh my gosh, this person’s being trafficked,So it’s like these things kinda all coming together. But many times because pimps and traffickers are recruiting, posing as like a boyfriend or girlfriend they’re gonna have some sort of warning sign of an unhealthy, toxic or abusive romantic relationship. Especially if there’s like a bigger age gap. Traffickers can be any age, but especially if that’s there, they have like this daddy figure in their life, they’ll call them their boyfriend or daddy rather than like a pimp. They’re gonna have signs of abuse, sudden changes of behavior. When you’re starting to experience that kind of control or trauma, like you’re gonna either start acting out in ways that you normally don’t or you’re gonna totally isolate from the people around you.

(01:06:36):
Mm-Hmm,They might have secrecy with their phones or technology. You might notice that they have multiple phones too. Traffickers will intentionally give their victims like a phone that the parents and others don’t know about. So they can communicate them without being hindered or blocked. They may start acting over promiscuous whether over promiscuous and it’s not appropriate for their age or they have never started to behave that way before. They’ll probably isolate from their friends and their family really shut down in those ways. Even have like extra cash or new inexpensive items they like can’t afford or their parents aren’t gonna give to them. It could even be like hair it can be nails and makeup, it can be like a new gaming console. It can be shoes and clothes and, and all of those kinds of things.

(01:07:19):
And so warning signs are so important. ’cause I think that when we’re in the midst of a situation, even like Brandon was talking about in like his story, like he was in the middle of it. Like it was so difficult. It’s so difficult when you’re in the middle of something to see it for what it truly is. Mm-Hmm.And so I think the power of our program, the power of fight, the new drug is that like, oh, our peers can see those things, the people that care about us and be equipped with the knowledge to like speak up. So like when Brandon first shared his story, even though he had gone through like a therapy process, I was like, you realize this is an addiction and you’re sexually abused. And he’s like, well, that’s news to me. ,You know? But like I had, I had a level of education that was able to like identify those things.

(01:07:55):
Not that I’m a clinician and can like diagnose, but I was able to be like, Hey, there’s warning signs here. So in the same way those students that we had mentioned are like, Hey, like you can’t see this because you’re in the middle of it, but I’m, I’m really concerned. Like I’m seeing some of these elements. Like what do you think? Have you noticed these things that like I’ve noticed? And so yeah, those warning signs are, are really important to know. And then for a pimp or a trafficker, you’re gonna just see a lot of warning signs of like an really an abuser. They’re gonna be super controlling and jealous. They’re going to have a lot of money be flashy or very like in need of a lot of money. But really they, on their job and what they’re doing, they’re gonna have all these ideas to make quick money. They’re gonna push past a lot of sexual boundaries or have ideas to exchange some sort of sexual service for money. So those are a lot of those elements there. As well on that side,

Fight The New Drug (01:08:43):
Thank you for sharing that. It’s so important for all of us to know that and to be reminded of that as often as possible so we can keep an eye out for those things. I wanna ask you both quickly where you are interacting with youth. So many people that we speak to and hear from don’t know much about OnlyFans, but it is something that is making waves kind of in youth culture. Can you tell us what you’re seeing with regard to OnlyFans in the interactions that you have with youth?

Breanna (01:09:12):
Yeah. We don’t see a whole lot of interaction with youth as far as them like saying that they’re on it or things like that, even though like statistically like we know that they’re on it and engaging it. I think the biggest impact we’ve seen is the mindset that students have. So in like before, like the shutdowns and everything happened, when we would ask students what they think about like prostitution they had a whole host of descriptors, both positive and negative both neutral and very judgmentalNow one of the first things that kids say is sex work. And one of the things that they go to when they’re referring to sex work and the benefits of sex work is OnlyFans. And so I think what we’re seeing culturally in that cultural grooming, like the lies being sold to these kids of like, Hey, this is a valid way to make money.

(01:09:59):
we know that kids are on there and they are, you know, like selling pictures and engaging. And so it’s, it’s a way that, so just as a minor passing nude of themselves to like a romantic partner that is still distribution of child pornography, you know, like that’s still self-generated child sexual abuse mat material. And so in the same way that’s OnlyFans as well. And so what’s happening is OnlyFans is acting as like a pimp or a trafficker in that sense. They’re the manager of all of those things. They’re taking a cut of all of the money. They are controlling what’s seen and what’s not seen. I’m sure OnlyFans has its own algorithm and so like, it’s, it’s really managing these kids and Yeah. And so I, I think that it’s, it’s difficult because I think OnlyFans is really just the extension of nudes becoming normalized for young people.

(01:10:46):
and what we try to communicate is like, Hey, just because something’s normal doesn’t make it common. Like, or just because something’s Yeah, common doesn’t make it normal. And so like, yes, it might be common. Alot of people might be engaging these behaviors. First of all, it doesn’t mean everyone is, it’s only even though it is a percentage of students, it’s, it’s not the most, you know it’s not the majority. And so, but it doesn’t make it normal. It’s never been normal to create and distribute child sexual abuse material. And so wherever that’s happening, something abnormal is happening, we just have to ask the question why. And so I think for us it’s really how do we reshape, you guys do such a good job of this that we love. It’s like how do we reshape the attitudes and perceptions about these things so that the behavior then follows

Fight The New Drug (01:11:26):
Brandon and Breanna, it has been truly an honor to get to speak with you both today. I, there’s so much more I would love to talk about with you and I know we’re short on time. I would love to have you both back on so we can continue to talk more. But is there anything else we haven’t covered yet today that you wanna be sure to mention or share with our listeners before we wrap up today?

Brandon (01:11:46):
Man, just really grateful to be on here with you guys and yeah, just so appreciated everyone even listening to this and mm-Hmm. , I think their genuine interest in taking a step back and like trying to gather all the facts and yeah. Consider before consuming mm-hmm and living the best life that they can Mm-Hmm that honors the people around them. ’cause that really is I think, bringing justice forward Mm-Hmm. in a way that makes us really excited that we talk about a lot. So

Breanna (01:12:14):
Yeah.

Brandon (01:12:14):
Yeah.

Breanna (01:12:14):
And I think if anyone’s interested in like following up with us, like we’re super easily accessible. Like it’s, we’ve got this like giant team of two over here and so you like hit us up on like Instagram or social media and like DM us that’s coming straight to us. And so if you want like access, like there’s that, we also wanna be able to provide those red flag cards to your listeners too. So they can either download those on our website or light rebellion.org/red flags or you could even text red flags all one word to 6 0 2 9 2 2 10 40. And so that’s definitely, we wanna be able to spread that awareness as much as possible, especially with those red flag cards. ’cause we’ve seen such powerful stories and impact come from that. And so, so yeah, so we’re just super grateful to be on here with you guys and yeah, excited for just future conversations and love what you guys do. You guys have definitely fight the new drug’s been like heroes to us. So you’ve inspired a lot of how we do the things that we do too,And so you guys have definitely been just almost like great role models, I guess to like this little little nonprofit over here.

Fight The New Drug (01:13:18):
Well, thank you both so much. We’re so grateful for the work that you’re doing. I can’t wait to see more as you roll out these new programs into any of our listeners. Please be sure to check out Red Light Rebellion on social media, their visit, their website, download these red flag cards and let’s all continue to make a difference together on these issues. Thank you both so much. Thank you.

Brandon (01:13:37):
Thanks Natalie.

Promo (01:13:48):
Did you know that porn could be damaging your relationships? Episode two of our documentary series, brain Heart World titled The Heart Explores How Porn Use Affects Intimacy Trust and Emotional Connection Between Partners. We share real stories in cutting edge research that reveal the hidden costs of consuming porn in today’s digital age. Whether you’re in a relationship or flying solo, this episode offers crucial insights on how to protect what matters most. Your Heart. Watch the Heart episode for free at ft d.org/the heart. That’s ft d.org/the heart.

(01:14:31):
Hey, parents, navigating the digital world with your kids can be tough, but it doesn’t have to be. Introducing the Raises app, your free guide to Confident Parenting in the Digital Age Raises helps you manage screen time, tackle cyber bullying, and protect your kids from online predators with expert advice, engaging family challenges. Ahandy goal tracking feature and more Rays is here to help support you every step of the way. Download the Rays app today at ftd.org/rays and start building a safer digital future for your family. That’s f tnd.org/raise.

Outro (01:15:16):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming, consider before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug Fight. The new drug is a non-religious and a non-GI legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science facts and personal accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider before Consuming has made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support, consider before Consuming, you can make a onetime or recurring donation of any amount at ft ftd.org/support. That’s ftd.org/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness. Look both ways. Check your blind spots and consider before consuming.