Intro (00:11):
In today’s episode, we sit down with Dr. Frank Anderson, a renowned trauma expert, psychiatrist, and author. Throughout the conversation, we explore the complex relationships between trauma and addiction, the role of shame, and the challenges individuals face in their recovery journeys. Dr. Anderson also opens up about his own personal healing process, offering a compassionate perspective on the path to self-forgiveness and authentic living. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (00:49):
Frank, it’s so great to have you here with us today on Consider Before Consuming for our listeners, can we just dive right in and can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Dr. Anderson (01:00):
Yes. I’d much rather tell you a little bit about who I am and what I do, because I hate hearing those introductions about me. It’s like Harvard train, blah, blah, blah, like work around. Like, there’s all of that stuff that comes along with my very extensive bio, and when I hear that, I’m like, oh my goodness.

Fight The New Drug (01:18):
It is a very impressive bio and resume,

Dr. Anderson (01:22):
So yeah, I love to introduce myself as a person instead of a bunch of accolades because as you can tell, I’ve been really busy throughout my career. the thing I would say is that I’m really found my purpose in life after my, after releasing my second book called Transcending Trauma. And that’s really to bring trauma healing to the world. And I’ve spent most of my career and most of my personal life in the field of trauma. No small surprise. started working with Bessel VanDerKolk in 1992, a really long time ago, became the psychiatrist for him at his trauma center. And then probably around 2004, I met Dick Schwartz, who’s the founder of Internal Family Systems Therapy, and I became a lead trainer and created the trauma curriculum for him. More recently, I’ve gotten this mission after the release of a memoir that I wrote called To Be Loved, to really bring trauma healing to the general public. So I’ve opened a trauma institute and a trauma informed media company to bring trauma awareness and healing to the general public because I just think there’s not enough resources within psychotherapy, and this is a really big issue the world is dealing with. So I’m gonna try to reach as many people as possible. Well,

Fight The New Drug (02:46):
The work you’re doing is so important and we’re so grateful to have you here to have this conversation today. To just dive right in. Could you start by explaining the role that trauma plays in addiction, especially, especially regarding pornography addiction and how unresolved trauma, you know, can feel compulsive behaviors like a pornography habit?

Dr. Anderson (03:06):
Trauma and addictions go hand in hand is what I would say. Addictions in general, and we certainly can talk specifically about porn addiction. but there is this way that trauma blocks connection, trauma blocks connection internally and trauma blocks connection amongst each other. And so this striving and reaching for some form of connection and or a way to soothe the lack of connection is how, for me, the addictive cycle and trauma is connected. Because when you’re alone, when you feel unlovable, when you don’t have a connection internally or with others, the utter experience of emptiness is pretty profound. And so people reach for substances to fill that void, and they reach for substances to numb the pain. And there’s all kinds of substances we reach for, right? From food to alcohol to nicotine, to all different various drugs, and also gambling and pornography, you know, so there is a way that that the addictive cycle is so loaded with shame and so is pornography or sexuality, let me say sexuality before I say pornography.

(04:40):
So sexuality, there’s so much shame in our culture and society around it’s bad, it’s wrong, and you shouldn’t, and don’t. And so we, we just grow up in a culture that holds so much shame around sexuality. And there’s so much shame in the addictive cycle in general. And those two things are almost like a perfect marriage around finding ways to soothe, finding ways to feel better, finding ways to seek connection no matter how kind of fleeting or momentary it might feel. It’s better than nothing, so to speak. And so there is that component to it that is really rooted in trauma. Relational trauma is what I’m talking about specifically. A couple other things I’ll say about it. people who have been sexually evaluated, well, there’s a whole discussion around what happens to us when we’ve been sexually violated and which way we would try to protect ourself, whether it’s through hypersexuality or hypersexuality, people go either way, right? So when there’s a sexual violation, there tends to be these adaptive responses to either hyper or hypo. And we see that a lot with the addictive substances around pornography. The other thing I have so much to say, like this is the first question. Holy

Fight The New Drug (06:12):
Cow. No, this is amazing. We’re covering so much ground and I wanna come back and break down each part of this.

Dr. Anderson (06:18):
Just take notes and I’ll just keep talking.

(06:21):
Yes. So the other piece of pornography that is connected to trauma is the objectification component, right? So there’s so much objectification in pornography, which fits beautifully, excuse me, with trauma, because people who are relationally violated are often objectified. They’re not treated as people, they’re actually treated as objects. That’s what trauma and relational violation is. So there’s so much objectification, right? There’s a, there’s an inherent objectification that goes along with that. So there’s this replication quality that’s attached to it. the other piece I’ll say is that the younger generation who is growing up in a digital age is learning sexuality through pornography. Like they don’t know how to differentiate pornography and the objectification and the, the sexual component of that to real connection and authentic sexual expression. So there’s a whole generation of kids growing up that see that as sexuality, and it’s a, that’s a very bit disturbing crossover in a way for me.

Fight The New Drug (07:40):
I wanna jump back to one piece of what you said, and then I have a lot of other follow-up questions. So, you know, looking at trauma survivors in particular, as you mentioned, are particularly vulnerable to addiction. what specific needs should be addressed in their recovery for someone who is finding themselves in this position who does have trauma knowingly or unknowingly what particular needs should be addressed?

Dr. Anderson (08:07):
So, a couple things. When I talk about any addictive cycle, and I usually, I do use that word cycle, but when you’re recovering from trauma, it really is all about love and connection. You know, trauma blocks, love and connection, and it is love and connection that heals trauma. So, and people have a strong love affair to their addictive substance, okay? That love and connection gets transferred from people to substances. So when you’re working through any addictive cycle, you’re gonna be aware of the underlying need for love and connection and how you can replace the substance, which has been serving an important role around loving connection and transfer that to internal loving connection as well as relational loving connection. So that’s kind of one piece I’m always paying attention to. People are like focusing on sobriety and I’m like, no, let’s focus on connection. Do you know what I mean?

(09:01):
Like, this is what we’re really talking about here. And there are some pretty strong connections to substances for sure. Right? The other thing I say when I work with addictive cycles is people, we have to look at three layers, three components. There’s the emotional connection to a substance. The, I love this. It’s the only thing that gives me relief. The only thing that makes me feel good, nobody’s been there for me, like my alcohol has. So there’s an emotional connection to an addictive substance. There’s a physical or biological, there’s a biological connection. You know, each one of these substances do different things. Many of them hijack the dopamine system in the brain, but they, each one of these drugs are different. Like even in the psychedelics world, when you look at ketamine versus MDMA, they do different things. When you look at alcohol versus nicotine, they do different things in the brain.

(10:01):
So as you’re working on the emotional component, you have to take into account the biological component. Also, there’s a biological component to every substance. I used to think, heal the trauma and then addiction goes away. I’m like, no, it doesn’t work that simply. ’cause there’s a physiological addiction, which you have to be very thoughtful around how you’re going to help someone safely taper off a substance. You stop using a fifth of vodka every day, or benzodiazepines, for example, you’re gonna get a seizure. You know what I mean? So there’s a healthy way to deal with the biological component. The last thing I’ll say is there’s a habit that is also associated with every addiction, and people don’t pay attention to that as much. They look at the biology or the genetics, they look at the emotional. But so many people, I’ve worked on both of those layers and they’re like, yeah, but I get into the car and I smoke a cigarette.

(11:04):
Like that’s what I do. Or after dinner, I have dessert and a cigarette. And it’s like a, like when I go to work every day, I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So there’s these habits that get encoded for people that are just kind of regular routine things. We see this a lot with food addiction. you know, this is what I do. There’s a, we know there’s a physiological addiction to glucose and all the things that happen with high fructose corn syrup and everything. And so we have to look at the habit also. So anytime we’re addressing any addictive cycle, I wanna look at the emotional component, the biological component, and the habit. And you have to address them each in the order that’s right for each person. ’cause everybody’s different. We don’t do it the same for every person.

Fight The New Drug (11:50):
Yeah, that’s really well said. And for someone who’s maybe finding themselves in this habit or in this cycle, acknowledging that they have all of these components but maybe is unaware of of unresolved trauma, they might be holding or unaware of the role that could be playing. What are some subtle signs of past trauma that often go overlooked? for an individual staggering with addiction or a compulsive habit or behavior?

Dr. Anderson (12:16):
I don’t think there’s anybody who has an addictive cycle that doesn’t have some kind of trauma history. , sorry. Like, I don’t know if you’ve had gabo mate on this podcast, or not yet, but he’s a friend of mine and you know, him and I have a very similar belief system around every addictive cycle is rooted in some kind of unresolved trauma. And usually it’s childhood ’cause it’s been repressed, but not only right, being grown up in a, being raised in a dysfunctional family. So people like rarely, is it like purely genetic? Rarely is it Sometimes there are people like my uncle, his uncle, my cousin, everybody’s got it. Like, sometimes there is that biological genetic thing only, but very rarely. Usually it’s rooted in some kind of relational trauma or disruption with primary parents or with people, you know, close within our family. So that’s one of the reasons people have such a hard time with sobriety is because feelings come up actually when you stop using a substance to get away from the feelings, the feelings, the original wound, the original trauma starts resurfacing. And that’s what causes such a high relapse rate. People don’t have the, the tools or the equipment to tolerate emotion because most substances quell or suppress emotions one way or another. I mean, I’m, I don’t have a huge addiction, but I have a propensity for chocolate chip cookies. Let me just say that. And I haven’t had one in a long time, and I had one yesterday and it was literally like, oh, like I felt this relaxation. I was like,

Promos (14:09):
Yeah,

Dr. Anderson (14:10):
That is powerful. Like, it just soothed me. And it was fat and sugar and all the things that are part of an addictive cycle around food. So they do have this quality initially of soothing and calming. And because of the nature of an addictive substance, because of dependency and habit, the more and more you take, the less and less effective it is and the more and more you need. And then it gets into this crazy cycle, and like, this cook doesn’t work anymore, you know, and I’m eating 20 chocolate chip cookies a day. They ain’t causing any soothing, it’s just causing, you know, me chasing the addictive cycle.

Fight The New Drug (14:49):
But it’s still comfortable and familiar, right? For someone. So in that way, there’s, there’s that there’s that coping ability. And for so many people with pornography, you know, they begin consuming pornography at such a young age that this is a coping mechanism people have with them their whole lives. And then in adulthood they say, oh, well I just, I would like to stop and I can’t. And can you speak a little bit to that aspect of pornography addiction specifically?

Dr. Anderson (15:15):
Yeah. There, I mean, we, there is a real physiologic, the dopamine system gets hijacked. Okay. You know, if you talk to anybody in technology that like button causes a release of dopamine every time we hit a, like, every time a notification comes in, ding, like it’s a dopamine hit. That is what pornography is also there. You know, the visual men have a more visually kind of, men are more visually drawn. Women are more, you know, emotionally drawn. There’s obviously differences in everyone, but those, those visual hits of that one person looking in that certain way with a certain kind of body is an addiction. Like it’s a hit of something, you know women who are kind of seeing themselves be tended to like, and it soothes the, the relational desires and needs, right? When you see that, it gives you that, that momentary relief. And then, then you’re on this ever quest of searching for that hit again. And, you know, 99 out of a hundred don’t do it, but that one does. It’s really potent look. Yeah. Looking for intermittent reinforcement.

Fight The New Drug (16:31):
So as you mentioned in your intro, you’ve written several books you recently came out with a book to be loved. and in that you share deeply personal aspects of your own trauma. How has this experience shaped your understanding of healing

Dr. Anderson (16:48):
Massively in a way that was kind of surprising.

Fight The New Drug (16:51):
. Okay.

Dr. Anderson (16:52):
I wasn’t expecting to write a book and heal as a result of that. Okay. I have been in therapy for a really long time, if you’ve read my book, I started my therapy journey at six years old, right? So, and I’ve been in therapy for 33 years and counting, so it’s been a long time. So I kind of was like, yeah, I’ve done the healing. Let me tell my story about my trauma history to the world so they can learn about healing. I was not expecting to have such a profound, I was not expecting writing a memoir to have such a profound effect on me, you know? And the last third of the book was written in real time. My dad, who was my primary abuser was ailing, and he was sick. And I would go and help my mom take care of ’em, and I’d have these amazing experiences.

(17:42):
Then I’d get on the plane, I’d baw my eyes out and I’d write, write, write, write, write. So it was like, writing is always like writing in retrospect when you’re pulling memories from the past. But to write as something was actually happening was incredibly powerful for me. My life unfolded in this way to support a memoir, which was shocking. And, and you know, this is interesting because I’m, I’m creating a new model of therapy for people to do outside of psychotherapy offices, partly because so much healing for me happened in my life outside of the therapy office. And I’m really wanting to encourage people to have these, what I call corrective moments. Okay? Many of us have repetitive moments. Why do I keep attracting unavailable men? Why do I keep finding girls that are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? You know what I mean? We’re tend, we tend to repeat with an attempt to redeem.

(18:45):
Okay? We repeat with an attempt to redeem. And I really wanna help people learn that there’s a way to visit your past without repeating it and make deliberate choices in your life in the present that are different. But you can’t just make choices in the present that are different if you don’t visit your past. But you shouldn’t get stuck in your past either. ’cause so many people get stuck there and they’re on what I call rinse and repeat. It’s like 1, 2, 3, 4. So I’m really trying to help people visit where you need to and be very deliberate about making new choices in the present. And it’s not easy. You know, I was on a call today with somebody who I saw as kind of a mentor in my life who wasn’t, didn’t, it wasn’t the greatest relationship for me. And I was able, I’ve been able to stand up and speak up and ha do it differently, right? Not repeat my relationship with my dad. Like, I had a call today and I was like, why am I nervous again? I’ve already done this, you know? And I was like, come on Frank, you’ve got to show up. You’re strong and competent, you know, show up in a different kind of way. And after all these years, it’s still challenging but doable, you know? ’cause the more corrective experiences we have, the more we dis-confirm the trauma.

Fight The New Drug (20:10):
Wow, that’s so beautifully said. And, and what an amazing gift for all of us that you learned this through the process of writing your m and and healing in that way so that you could share this, you know, some of the things your book emphasizes are self-forgiveness and compassion which it sounds like is exactly what you’re talking about right now. Can you explain why those are so central to recovery and how, you know, individuals can start developing those feelings toward themselves who maybe aren’t quite there yet?

Dr. Anderson (20:40):
Yeah. Self-compassion and self-forgiveness. Like that was kind of a surprise, to tell you the truth. I wasn’t, I wasn’t really expecting that. Like what I will tell you is that, you know, I, a lot of years of therapy verbally and physically abused kind of a passive mom. And I did a lot of work to kind of heal my, my trauma. And then I was able to find a healthy relationship, you know, after a couple real failed attempts for sure. And I started having kids and I saw that I was recreating the behavior of my, some of the behaviors my father had on my kids, which was just so mortifying. So I would be so hard on myself, so critical, so judgmental. My husband was always like, don’t be so, you know, we’re not that bad. We’re not as bad. Like, he was always trying to talk me out of feeling so bad about kind of the ways that I did replicate some things.

(21:38):
So I held a lot of judgment and criticism around the, the harm I did. It was the only time in my life it became suicidal was when I did what was done to me to some degree, right? So I held a lot of that for a long time. What was shocking for me was during the end of my dad’s life, there was this huge process of working through things with him in real time as he was failing, as he was more vulnerable, kind of, for the first time in his life that I had a level of forgiveness to him for all that he had done, that I rose above the anger, the hurt, and the resentment that I had because of the healing work that I had done ’cause of the space that I was in that I was able to, to see him for the kind of fragile, vulnerable guy he was.

(22:37):
He had limitations. As a kid, you can’t see that ’cause you need a parent. But as an adult, while he was at the end of his life, I saw him in a different light and I had the capacity to forgive him. And it felt so freeing for me to be able to forgive him for what he did. It wasn’t about him, it was about me letting go of what I was carrying about him. You know, people are always like forced to forgive. And I’m like, don’t do that. Like, do it for yourself after you’ve healed your trauma. Not before. We pushed forgiveness way too prematurely. So I did this huge piece of work. I’m forgiving my dad. I, I felt love for him for kind of the first time in my life. It was really powerful. And this shock was I started forgiving myself. It’s like dawned on me.

(23:36):
I was like, oh my goodness. Like, how could you truly forgive yourself when you’re holding someone else accountable to a standard that’s different than your own? Like, I can forgive myself, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m not gonna forgive you. Like, it was a very interesting dynamic when I forgave him. Then I had the room in this space to also forgive me, which was a, I did not expect that. It was shocking, you know? And I don’t think it has to go in that order. I think some people can forgive themselves and then also forgive somebody who harmed them. I don’t think it has to be done a certain way. But for me, the space I opened the of no longer carrying what I carry towards my dad enabled me to feel loving compassion for him and loving compassion for me. I’m like, we’re both, we’re both humans who are fallible, you know?

(24:37):
And there’s, I have to tell you this Natalie, I was really excited recently about hearing this person on social media differentiate love and authenticity. I thought it was really cool and I’ll share what I heard. And they said, and it was kind of shocking. It got my attention, said love is not the highest vibration. And I was like, huh, really? Like, I’ve always thought of love as like loving connection is what heals, right? And they said authenticity is, and I was like, oh, tell me more. And it was what they said, and I really love this, was that authenticity holds the truth of all of us. The good and the bad, not just the good. Like when you’re authentic, you’re holding the rage, right? And I just love that so much. And it’s the authentically seeing my father for the good and bad in him as well as authentically seeing myself.

(25:43):
You know? And there was such, there’s such freedom in that. I, I was, I was on a, b, c news this weekend around the election, okay? Like, okay, like it’s such a hot, crazy time for people. But it’s the same thing. It’s the way we other people, we hold onto the good in us and we other, the other side as evil. And I was like, maybe we can see us all as complicated humans with both good and bad. That’s what the world needs for healing, right? And there’s so much self-loathing around any addiction. Like, can we hold the complexity of what it does, what we’re seeking, what we don’t like about it, what we do like about it, like, and not judge us as all good or all bad, and hold the range and complexity. I think the world would be a different place if we have a capacity to do that.

Fight The New Drug (26:46):
Yeah. And I think there’s so many pieces of this I wanna unpack, you know, on one hand everything you just shared, I think for anyone who heard your resume, which we didn’t give here, but they heard it in the intro of the episode, or read it in the show notes to know, you know, who you are, the work that you’ve done and to know that this is still an experience you had to figure out in your own time, in your own way I think is is so encouraging for people to really show, you know, that it’s never too late to be able to heal, heal your trauma and, and make that progress that so many people are wanting to make, but, but feel stuck. And then also this, this piece about forgiveness and authenticity. I love that you brought that up because I think part of the reason there’s so much shame around pornography addiction in particular is because it’s something that it, you know, thrives in secrecy, right?

(27:41):
It’s something that we have judgments about. It’s something that you know, so many people are afraid to just say, this is something I’m dealing with and you know, I’m working on it. And because we have these judgments about it. So to be able to live authentically to say, this is where I’m at and I am growing, it really opens that door to begin to address those traumas. And so it is all related and it is all connected. And it’s so encouraging to see you, you, you know, experience this on your own and go from kind of maybe a place of more survival with some of these things into really thriving. And for someone who’s maybe in a similar space on this journey, you know, how could they recognize the signs of true progress for themselves? Do you think if they’re

Dr. Anderson (28:29):
It’s internal in the

Fight The New Drug (28:30):
Same spot?

Dr. Anderson (28:30):
It’s mostly internal. Like, I’m working on this program as I talked about, and I’m talking about big behaviors, like, like look at your big behaviors. What are the behaviors that you wanna change, you feel bad about, you have shame about whatever. Like, look at those big behaviors as adaptations to trauma. All the stuff people want to stop and change all addiction, you know, yelling, drinking, screaming, those are all adaptations to trauma. They are ways we try to protect ourselves even though they’re not. And we, we learn how to behave from the environment we grow up in. Like that’s our biggest teacher. So if you grow up in a dysfunctional family, you are gonna incorporate dysfunctional behaviors. That’s kind of what happens. So to appreciate these behaviors as adaptations is one thing. To get to know them and value them for what they’re trying to do, not for the effect that they have on others or on yourself, is important.

(29:35):
Mm-Hmm, . And what you see with progress is the more can appreciate and value these big behaviors for their intention, there becomes this natural softening, this lack of criticism, this what I call relational repair inside. Oh, I’m not such a bad person. Oh, I’m doing this for a reason. Oh, there’s, you know, there might be a way that this helped me once upon a time. Let’s see if I can come up with a different adaptation, but appreciate why I did what I did. You start seeing those soften and that’s where healing comes in. That’s where you then have access to the parts of you that hold the wounds and pain of trauma. And there is a healing process involved in that that many people don’t know. And you know, there is, that’s one of the things I really wanna teach is how we do heal the trauma as well as appreciate the adaptations to it, right?

(30:47):
And once that healing is done, people don’t need to rely on these adaptations anymore. They’re not carrying the hurt and pain anymore, and they’re living life from a different place. It feels different when you can show up differently, more with love and authenticity, you know, than with protection and fear, right? So there is a progress, like it happened today. Like as I said earlier, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m nervous, you know, I was like, wait a minute, you’re strong, you’re capable, you’re a good person. You can show up with your truth here, right? And so when our trauma is buried and our responses are too active, we don’t have that capacity to kind of get outside of it and do it differently, right? So there’s a way to watch yourself, like we are with ourselves all the time, , unless we’re dissociating. So you can see yourself showing up differently. You know, you can see those changes like, huh, look at that. I would’ve done it this way, but I did it this way instead. So there’s a way for self-awareness and self-reflection that I think is super important

Fight The New Drug (32:07):
For some of our listeners. they maybe are just considering for the first time as they listen to this, that maybe they have some addictions that are affecting their life negatively. and for a lot of people it’s so intimidating to approach that to say, where do I even begin? What would you say to someone who’s, who’s really in that spot of saying, okay, I think this might be negatively affecting me. what do I do? Where do I start? How do I start

Dr. Anderson (32:34):
First? This is gonna sound strange. Maybe don’t call it an addiction. I okay. Like have a little bit more compassion. Like, wow, there’s this behavior that I wanna get to know better and I wanna see what the roots to the origins of it are. Like. It’s an inquiry. Like, treat yourself kindly because as you said, there’s so much shame in every single addictive cycle. And the more you try to get rid of it, the stronger it will become. Okay? So the first, when there’s that awareness, hey, this is problematic. My suggestion is to shift to curiosity and appreciation, which may sound weird because it is a adaptive protective response. People are not addicts. It’s what they do to protect their pain, what a part of them does to protect underlying pain and trauma. So try to be kind. ’cause the world isn’t, people who are affected by it are not ’cause they’ve been affected by it, but in order for you to truly make a change, like think about, i, I like to say this to people.

(33:57):
If I, if you want my attention, if I yelled at you and screamed at you and wanted to get rid of you, I wouldn’t get your attention. I’d get you to run the hell away. If I wanted your attention, I would say, tell me more. I’m really interested. I’d love to know more about who you are and what you do and why. Then there’s this natural draw toward, right? Everybody, including the parts of us that use addictive substances feel better when we’re heard, seen and known. And that’s what I want people to do when they see these behaviors. That’s why I, somebody said, oh, call ’em problem behaviors. And I’m like, no, I’m calling ’em big behaviors, not problem behaviors because problem is that like negativity that will not get you very far.

Fight The New Drug (34:48):
Yeah. Nobody wants to admit they have a problem, but to, to be curious about something. And I love that you said that. I think so often we forget you know, of course we all wanna be seen and known, but we forget to like, see and know ourselves. and I think it sounds so simple when you spell it out, but I do think it’s really good advice for people to know where to begin. and I would guess based on that, your response to this may be similar, but what advice would you give to someone who wants to support a loved one who is experiencing a big behavior or a trauma related compulsive behavior or addiction?

Dr. Anderson (35:25):
That’s not a simple answer. my goodness. Like, oh, welcome to my world. Like there’s so many people who are adult children of alcoholics. There’s so many people who are enablers. There’s so many people who are caretakers, right? Like, it’s such a powerful dynamic when you are with somebody who is struggling with an addictive cycle, you’ve gotta look at yourself. I say, do the U-turn baby, do the u-turn, because most people who are with somebody are focusing on them instead of focusing on themselves. I hate to say it, but it’s true. And you’re not gonna be able to save anyone else. And you’ve gotta focus on yourself. Why am I, why was I drawn to somebody who has an addictive psycho? What am I getting by having them have all these problematic behaviors? And I look like the innocent good one. Like it’s really about looking at yourself.

(36:29):
What is familiar? What are you replicating? What are you avoiding, right? And what do you need to change is very powerful. boy, as, as somebody you know, who was grew up with both two parents who drank a lot, you know, I was always fixing the family. If the family’s fixed, then I’m gonna get the love I need. If I focus on your problem and you get regulated, then I’m gonna get the attention that I’m striving for craving, right? And so anybody who’s with somebody like that, it is not a coincidence. It’s a, it’s a dynamic that is present and, you know, it’s so much easier to blame the one who’s screaming and yelling versus the blame, the one who’s quietly in the background accommodating and tolerating it.

Fight The New Drug (37:25):
I would love to dig into that more. And we’re limited on time, and I have a couple remaining questions for you. Yeah. We’ll have you on again. I would love to, I would love to have you back. speaking of that support person, someone in a relationship with someone who has a compulsive pornography behavior addiction and something that they’ve agreed between the two of them is not something that they’re comfortable with in their relationship. that partner can experience betrayal trauma. Can you, as a trauma expert, you know, can you help our audience understand what betrayal trauma is and what a partner might be experiencing in that scenario?

Dr. Anderson (37:59):
Yeah. There is a way that, you know, pornography addiction can have this. It is, it’s a, it’s an emotional affair quality as we talk about, right? And that, that when you are, when you are sharing that intimacy that both of you have agreed upon stays within the relationship, and then you’re, you’re, you’re giving that intimacy or you’re sharing that intimacy with somebody online and in certain kind of way that absolutely can feel like a betrayal, right? And it is a betrayal depending on the guidelines within the relationship. Like most couples, like some people truly want an open relationship. There’s nothing wrong with that. If it’s talked about, it’s clear and the boundaries and the rules are stated, but most people blindly assume that we have the same understanding of what infidelity is or what betrayal is. And most couples don’t talk about it. They just make this assumption, oh, we’re monogamous.

(39:00):
Well, what does that actually mean? And under what context? So I really encourage everybody to have those conversations upfront so that you both are clear. as opposed to ones like it’s just my, it’s just my friend at work. It’s nothing, blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? Like, I’ve, like, I haven’t been, never had an orgasm, so it’s not real betrayal or whatever the hell it is. Do you know what I mean? So get clear about your boundaries and get clear about the mutual expectations in the relationship. and then deal with it accordingly. Because if you don’t have that conversation upfront, there’s not much to kind of, it’s, it’s a he said, she said, or he said, he said whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? So be clear about it and then also be clear about what you’re willing or not willing to tolerate.

(39:46):
Because when, you know, some people experience that betrayal and they’re like, I’m outta here. I’m done. I I’m not gonna do this. Or let’s work through this. What needs to change in this relationship? Because there’s, it’s, it’s rarely it does happen sometimes rarely, the person who cheats is the only problem in the relationship. And are both couples, both parties interested, like, well, what did I bring to this and what did I bring to this? And can you create a new relationship? You don’t go back to what it was because it was a problem. That’s why it’s there. You know, it’s always this, but infidelity, betrayals always a symptom of something greater and are, and are both parties willing to look at their role. That’s hard to, that’s hard, especially when you’ve just been hurt. Yeah. But you have to repair the betrayal first before you can look at creating a new relationship together. Yeah. If it’s

Fight The New Drug (40:45):
Possible. Yeah. And going back to kind of what you said right before this is just assessing, you know, why was I attracted to this person? Why was I drawn to this set of circumstances? Not to victim blame anyone on any side of this, but just to acknowledge you know, where our own traumas might be fueling our own behaviors or our own motivations and relationships. And so with that do you have advice for couples where both parties are working through their own traumas and however that may manifest in their relationship?

Dr. Anderson (41:19):
Yeah. Don’t use your partner for your support person, honestly. Like, it’s not, you know, bringing up that history, working through that history is important. Using your partner as your support person changes the dynamic in the relationship because then somebody be, then it, it makes a, what’s supposed to be a mutually balanced relationship imbalance in whichever direction, you know? And one of the things that’s important, I’ve worked with a lot of couples where one has a sexual abuse history and the other one doesn’t. Both couples needs are important. Both needs to be taken into account. ’cause sometimes it’s like, I have the abuse history, so I can’t have sex for the next three years. And you have to honor that. Like, well, no, that’s one side of the story. And then what’s the other side of the story? Right? And how do you navigate, navigate two different needs when both people it should be mutual in ways that you work through compromise without relying on the other person to be your therapist.

Fight The New Drug (42:22):
Really Well said. I have 4,000 follow up questions for you on everything we covered today, and we’re out of time. So I would love to have you back to, to talk about this some more. But do you have any final parting words you’d like to share with our listeners? hopeful words regarding recovering from trauma or trauma and how it’s informing their addictions? Anything at all you’d wanna leave them with?

Dr. Anderson (42:46):
Yeah, the, the biggest piece, and you kind of referenced this, is that I want everybody to know that everybody can heal from their trauma. There’s nobody who’s too broken. There’s nobody who’s too far gone. There’s nobody whose trauma is too bad that they can’t be healed. One of the reasons I wrote the memoir in the first place is like, I have a pretty significant trauma history. And, and, and I’m doing this work since 1992 and I believe that everybody’s got the capacity to heal, to release the energy that you absorb from trauma is not your energy, it’s energy that you’re holding and it can be released.

Fight The New Drug (43:21):
It was such an honor to get to speak with you. for any of our listeners who wanna learn more about your work or your books, do you wanna give a plug for any of those?

Dr. Anderson (43:31):
Yeah, the two main things is go to my website. ’cause there I have a email list to sign up for so the people can kind of then follow my workshops and my courses and all that stuff. So it’s Frank Anderson md.com and I’m on most all social media channels. Instagram I think I’m probably the most active on. And that’s Frank Anderson, md. And yeah, that’s, you know, let’s, nobody’s gonna be able to heal this dilemma alone. Let’s do it together as a collective. So let’s join and, and help each other heal the world.

Fight The New Drug (44:08):
Well, thank you so much, Frank. It was an honor to have you here. I look forward to having you back if I get my wish and diving into more of this. But thank you for your work. We’ll be sure for any of our listeners to link all of Frank’s resources website where you can find out more in the show notes as well. So be sure to check those out.

Dr. Anderson (44:25):
Thank you so much for having me.

Promos (44:37):
Hey listeners, mark your calendars for December 3rd. It’s giving Tuesday a global day of giving back. This year we invite you to support Fight the New Drug’s mission to raise awareness about the harmful effects of pornography. Every contribution big or small fuels our efforts. You don’t have to wait. Visit f tnd.org/donate to make a difference today. And don’t forget to share why this cause matters to you. Tag us and use #GivingTuesday to amplify your voice. Together we can make a difference. It’s the best time of year to shop at the Fight the new Drug online store. During our annual No Porn November sale happening all month long. Get up to 50% off all our conversation starting year, including new items released just this month. It’s the perfect time to stock up on your favorite fighter gear. Plus, when you shop, 100% of the proceeds from your purchase support are mission to educate individuals on the harms of pornography and sexual exploitation. Get your gear before it’s gone. Shop the No Porn November sale now at ftnd.org/shop. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/shop.

Outro (45:52):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming, consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and non legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science, facts and personal accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you like to support, Consider Before Consuming, you can make a one-time or recurring donation of any amount at ftnd.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness. Look both ways. Check your blind spots and consider before consuming.