Garrett: What is up, people? I’m Garrett Jonsson and you’re listening to Consider Before Consuming, a podcast by Fight the New Drug. Before we jump into today’s episode, we want to remind you of two things. 1- Fight the New Drug’s #NoPornovember campaign begins this Friday, November 1st. If you’re wanting to learn more about #NoPornovember, we’ve linked an article with more details to this episode. And the second thing we want to mention is, #RepTheMovement Day, which is on November 22nd this year. In regards to #RepTheMovement Day, we recently released new merchandise. You can check the new merch by going to FTND.org/shop, that’s FTND.org/shop, because one way you can make a difference in the movement is by reppin’ the movement, especially on #RepTheMovement Day. So we invite you pick something at Fight the New Drug’s store, post on social media on November 22nd, using #RepTheMovement, that’s #RepTheMovement.

On today’s episode, we sit down with Sabrina Parr. Sabrina is a popular health and lifestyle coach in Atlanta, Georgia, and is currently dating two-time NBA champion, and previous guest on this podcast, Lamar Odom. During this conversation, Sabrina opens up about her personal struggle with pornography; she talks about how it had negative impacts on her mindset, her habits, and her relationships. She also talked about some of the positive or healthy consequences that occured once she was able to live a life free from pornography. We also discussed the importance of setting boundaries, and the role she’s played in empowering Lamar with his personal challenge with pornography.

We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming:

Garrett: We want to welcome to the podcast, Sabrina Parr. Sabrina, welcome. We are happy to have you today.

Sabrina: Great. I’m happy to be here.

Garrett: Yeah. To give our listeners a little bit of context. Um, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and where we can find you?

Sabrina: Okay. So, um, my name is Sabrina par as you just mentioned. I’m originally from Cleveland, Ohio. I live now in Atlanta, Georgia and I own a fitness company called Get Up to Par. Um, I am a trainer, um, life coach/ health coach. I’m a mom of two. And as you’ll learn in this interview, I am currently dating Lamar Odom and um, that’s a journey in itself. [laughter] Um, um, but no, that’s pretty much it. I’m really into um, self care, self love and I use fitness as a way to deal with stress, anxiety, depression, um, just any form of adversity in life and it’s worked out really great for me.

Garrett: I like that. That’s cool. So mom of two, how old are your kids?

Sabrina: They are six and seven. A boy and a girl. And um, they are very hyper. It’s a lot.

Garrett: For sure. I actually have a six and a five year old, so I’m right there.

Sabrina: Yeah. So you definitely understand the struggle.

Garrett: Exactly. Yeah, for sure. Well, to give our audience a little bit more context, kind of where we met and uh, why, why you’re on today is first of all, we heard of you and Lamar, um, being together because of the TMZ report where you guys were in the airport and a he kind of, that was the moment that you and him kind of announced it. He’s working on walking away from pornography and sugar is what he announced, right? And, uh, for us, our mission statement, the Fight the New Drug is to educate individuals on the harmful effects of pornography using science facts and personal accounts so that people can make an educated decision regarding pornography. And um, so yeah, I have to hear you in Lamar say that you’re ditching porn and sugar. We were excited to hear that because we think that’s pretty cool. Um, but yeah, that’s how we first heard of you. And then we got to, I w I was able to meet with you in Manhattan for like 10 minutes and I got to know you a little bit. Um, one thing that I remember is you said you were a college athlete.

Sabrina: Yes.

Garrett: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Did you run track? Is that what you did?

Sabrina: Yes, I ran track in college. I’m actually in California and I just, I do really well with it. I’m in including Ohio and um, does kind of use that as a way out, you know, in a way to, um, just at that age in high school I didn’t really know what expanding career was. I just knew that I wanted to get out of my current situations, but in hindsight, I now know that’s what I was using it for, was to expand my career and you know, create new opportunities, network and it’s worked greatly for me.

Garrett: That’s really cool. The reason, one reason why I was asking, I couldn’t remember if it was track. I thought you had said track when we were in New York, but I saw on your Instagram today that you were doing some basketball drills and I just gotta say you got some handles.

Sabrina: I am, I’m quite the athlete.

Garrett: You really are.

Sabrina: Um, that’s kind of how Lamar and I connected, um, through basketball. But yeah, I just grew up liking to play sports and more than anything I was just a competitor. So I remember just really quickly when I was younger, I just was not very good at basketball and that bothered me because I want it to be and I wanted to play and I wanted to be impactful. So I just kept doing it, you know, and over time and that, the years past I learned the game and I feel like now as an adult I’m better than I was as a child, you know, when I was a teenager because I’m more mature and I just know you don’t understand the game now. But, um, I still do play basketball very regularly, you know, just for cardio and stress. Um, and it just, excuse me, youthful, you know, I have fun and when I’m out there I just clear my mind, you know, I don’t have to worry about anything so…

Garrett: Seriously. Well, I’m being serious. Like when I saw you with those hand, like you, you have some skill when it comes to basketball. And then a while ago, maybe a month ago, I saw you in Lamar shooting hoops together, man, you were keeping up with Lamara it seemed like.

Sabrina: Actually I beat him. So I did. He’s down to the one to me every so often we play a game of horse. And just recently, the first time we played I won the second time he won and I won the last time. So, um, you know, we just have a lot of fun with it.

Garrett: Yeah. That’s healthy.

Sabrina: Yes.

Garrett: Well, we are excited to talk with you today, Sabrina, because a, you’re just, you’re a powerful person. You’re one of the things that I noticed about you is that you’re very positive. I feel like you’re trying to spread positivity in the world. Um, how did you become a health and life coach?

Sabrina: Okay. So, um, let’s see, when I was finishing college in 2008, I, um, was back in Cleveland actually. And you know, I’m an athlete, so I always had a passion for sport. So that just kind of started my career in personal training.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: So when it came to me having children and my body started changing, um, this was the first time I was faced with like having to lose weight. Okay. And before that it was just very natural for me to just look how I looked. So, um, that’s when I really got into nutrition and just learning that, you know, food is what changes our bodies along with some other things. But food is the main thing. And so that started, you know, and then I also had a desire to not work for anyone anymore and once I became a mom, so it was kind of the perfect match for me to be an entrepreneur with starting my own nutrition company and being able to stay home with the kids. So I started very small, just making like general food plans for weight loss that I had first used on myself. That worked really well. And then it just kind of expanded into like a whole meal prepping company in Cleveland, which I did really well with. And so just recently, over the past year I transitioned to Atlanta, Georgia and, um, just really wanting to expand my brand, you know, we’re still personal training. Um,

Garrett: And these products are yours. The name of the company is get up to par?

Sabrina: Yes, it is mine. Um, and it was, you know, someone brought it to me many years ago. Like just the whole idea of having product, you know, and I’m into being all natural. That’s the one thing if you visit my page, like I really take pride in just being who I am, looking how I look, you know? Um,…

Garrett: Authenticity.

Sabrina: Right. You know, naturally changing the things I can and accepting the things that I cannot change, you know, was what I like to live by.

Garrett: I like that.

Sabrina: So, but my advice to people is always you need to exercise. You need to have self care because everyone’s struggling with something. So like my, my passion is, you know, I have my passion because this is what I’ve used. You know, I went through a lot growing up and exercise sports, some form of, you know, working out was a way that I was able to cope and deal with things. And I think the world in general is just lacking coping skills, you know, they just don’t know how to cope with life. And, um, I have found that using exercise, it’s just a great way to, to handle life. So just, I’ve always had that passion and that, and so that’s how I started the business. And so now I’m always growing. I’m moving into another phase of the business now. Um, and kinda separating the product line from the brand. My separate brand will just be get up to par, which would be more like motivating and blogs and videos, you know, things of that sort. So, um, that’s pretty much it. That’s where I’m at now.

Garrett: That’s really cool. Um, well, the name of the podcast, as you know, Sabrina is Considered Before Consuming and we like to discuss the harmful effects of pornography and sexual exploitation using only science facts and personal accounts. And so one of the reasons why we wanted to have you on the podcast and have this conversation is because you have a personal account, um, around the pornography, around the harmful effects of pornography.

Sabrina: Yes.

Garrett: Um, and so I just wanted to ask you, when did you become aware, like when was the first time in your life that you became aware of some of the harmful effects of pornography?

Sabrina: Um, when I was married, so, um, I’m divorced now since 2016 and, you know, um, you know, our marriage, it was, it was pretty rough. You know, we had a lot of challenges and, um, a lot of times I just found myself like anytime he was away from the house just going to watch porn, you know, like, what’s the big deal? Um, it does take a lot of time and, you know, to make me feel better.

Garrett: Just to clarify, just to clarify, Sabrina, um, because I want it for our listeners to have the context. Did you say when he was around he would go and watch porn or when he, when he wasn’t around, you would watch porn?

Sabrina: When he wasn’t around, I would go watch porn.

Garrett: Okay.

Sabrina: Um, and I think, you know, I was just doing it just to like as a stress reliever and, and then sometimes I even convinced myself like, Oh, I’m grown. What’s the harm? You know, this is not like an other person. It’s not cheating. So, um, but I started noticing that, first of all, I’m sneaking. So it’s a lie that I’m creating and I’m always having to create some type of story or having a feeling of guilt around it when I’m done. And then also it was desensitizing me. So, um, I was starting to notice that when I would engage and have sex with my ex husband, it just wouldn’t feel the same. You know, like I will be then craving the feeling I had from when I was watching porn. And then the more I would watch it, the more I would want an higher high, you know? And so I’m always trying to go to another level and then maybe I would add a sex toy, you know? So not only did it just become time consuming, it was like I’m lying to him, he’s not pleasing me the same and now we’re arguing over something totally… you know, outside of with the real your shoes were. So, um, once I was divorced and some time has passed, I told myself, you know what, this is the problem. And so I got rid of my sex toys. So that was like step one. So, and I knew that was dangerous and I knew that that path could take me down to a dark place that I didn’t want to go. I really desired to have healthy relationships. So that was my very first time just really discovering like, you know, porn is dangerous for me.

Garrett: Interesting. That’s, thanks for sharing that. I think that’s very cool. And one of the reasons why I say “Cool”, I mean not that you had to have that challenge, but the fact that you kind of owned it, you had the self awareness to realize what was happening and kind of navigate away from that. And that’s, that’s pretty cool.

Sabrina: Yeah, it took some time. I didn’t own it initially, but eventually I did.

Garrett: Right. One of the misconceptions around pornography is that it’s only a guy problem and that’s not true.

Sabrina: That’s so far from the truth.

Garrett: So far from the truth. Because yeah, the numbers are showing that a lot of women also watch porn and have challenges with pornography. So we appreciate you being honest, honest with that because I think a lot of our listeners who maybe feel shame because they’re a woman who does have a challenge with pornography, they’ll probably look at you and be like, Oh, well she had it. Like “I’m normal. It’s okay. I can press.”

Sabrina: We’re all normal.

Garrett: Absolutely. That’s, that’s really cool. Um, we’ll fast forward. You were in 2016 you realize you have this a challenge. You want meaningful relationships in your life because going back to like the definition of health, one of the aspects of health is social health. Right?

Sabrina: Yeah.

Garrett: And so it’s all about relationships. Um, so you started seeking out relationships. Were you dating again? Was it challenging to get back into dating after…

Sabrina: For me, no. Um, I’m a very, you know, um, like I’m very conscious so I knew I needed time to heal, which I took, but I, you know, I wasn’t the girl that’s like, Oh, forget men, I’m divorced and I’m angry. You know? It was just like, okay, that didn’t work out. [inaudible] let’s move along, you know? And so I was dating was different for me because it seemed like during the time that I was dating my ex husband and got divorced, the quality of men had changed.

Garrett: Really?

Sabrina: Yeah. And I was like, women is putting up with this stuff. Like I’m like, what’s wrong with these guys?

Garrett: How long have you been married?

Sabrina: So I was only married three years.

Garrett: So like 2013 is kind of when…

Sabrina: I met him in 2012 and then by 2016 we were divorced.

Garrett: So basically from 2012 until 2016 when you start dating again, you’ve noticed a change in men.

Sabrina: Not all, you know, the men that I was that I’m speaking of.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know, you know, I was a woman. I consider myself successful, you know, I know my worth. I’m very old school. Um, you know, I like chivalry, you know, so it’s like going on a date with me is going to be like, okay, “What time are you picking me up?” Or if I didn’t know he wanted him to know where I lived, it would be like, “Okay, I’ll meet you there. Please be on time.” You know, like, like be on time, plan the whole date out, let me know what time we’re placed. You know, like there were some men that just couldn’t figure it out if like, Oh well you just pick something. Well, no, that’s lazy. To me, it just was difficult because it’s not what I was used to. And though, and even though my husband, my ex husband and I, you know, we didn’t work out like he was such a gentleman, you know, from day one, um, was definitely a planner, always opened the doors, you know, like those things were important to me and a lot of these guys, they just lacked that they were lacking that. So it challenging for me to date because of like my own issues. It was challenging because of the quality of men were just, it just wasn’t a lot out there that I had met yet. So, um, I just didn’t start, I just wasn’t seeking anyone. I was open to meeting people, but I was so busy, you know, I was rebuilding my life. I lost a lot through my divorce, you know, and was fighting custody battles and everything. So just trying to rebuild that, rebuild a brand, you know, relocate, just hold it all together, was enough in itself. And I knew it was going to take a very strong, confident man to even accept those things because that’s my own baggage that I have. So, um, my plight just became, you know, I’m just going to seek after what’s important to me. And at that moment it was financial stability, you know, relocating, building my brand, like creating a foundation for me and my family. And if a guy fit into that, great, you know, if not, I didn’t feel like I was like really missing out on anything.

Garrett: And as you were transitioning out of your divorce, um, that’s when you stopped looking at pornography, correct?

Sabrina: Yes. Um…

Garrett: Can you talk to a little bit about like how challenging that was for you?

Sabrina: So honestly, I was put, I was put in a situation where I was kind of forced to, um, choose between like morality and just so going through my divorce, um, you know, I was convicted of the charge and I ended up going to jail. So in six months, you know, I was confined and now granted women in jail, they do a lot sexually, you know, so it’s not like, Oh, because I’m in jail, I couldn’t masturbate. But obviously I couldn’t watch porn.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: But you know, you can create images in your head and you could still masturbate and you know, whatever. Right. But morally I was like, okay, I’m already incarcerated. Like you’ve got to be kidding me. Do you think I’m going to be in here focusing on, you know, masturbating in this nasty place. So for six months I did not touch myself at all. And so when I came out of that, I said, you know what, that wasn’t as challenging as I thought, you know, too, with whole from sex and to not masturbate. And I got so much done during that time, so it was like,….

Garrett: Wow, that’s so cool.

Sabrina: Yeah. So it was once I came out of jail that I threw my sex toys away cause I was like, “I don’t even need theses.” like I went six months with nothing. And instead of that, like I became a reader before I went to jail. I was not a reader at all, you know, and just my community and just being an athlete, a lot of times they just don’t push you to read.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: So, um, but in jail I was like, okay, I have to do something in here.

Garrett: Well first of all, there’s a, there’s a lot to unpack here. Like you’ve, you’ve said some incredible things. You’ve had some amazing experiences and I just got to say that I admire you so much Sabrina, because you’ve had some amazing experiences you’ve had up in ups and downs. You spent time in incarcerated and so that, like, I just think of the quote that “Nothing ever becomes real until it’s experienced” and you’ve experienced some stuff, you know, and then so I just want to say that I admire you for like, I want to hire you as my health coach.

Sabrina: Thank you.

Garrett: Because you, you know, how to get through the ups and downs. Um, but going back to your question or to your statement of habit, as you left the incarceration, you had six months without those toys, without, uh, without pornography. And you said it was pretty a, at that point you felt like it was pretty easy to get over that. Um, but previously you said you felt you were desensitized and you felt like you needed more and more often and more hardcore version. Um, do you feel like that six month period, kind of a, what’s the word, you, you, your, your mindset went back to a, to a healthier state?

Sabrina: Absolutely. Because the thing is you don’t know you’re unhealthy when you’re unhealthy. You just don’t know. You feel normal and most people are not talking about it. So there’s no accountability for it. You’re just battling this in your mind and you’re convincing yourself that this is fine, this is why you do it. So, or you convinced yourself that maybe it isn’t okay, but you’re not strong enough to stop. So I’m either way, while I was, you know, taken advantage of watching porn and masturbating and using these toys, I didn’t really think it was a bad thing. You know? And then I have friends, we kind of all talked about it together. It was like our norm.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know? And there was like a thing, like a couple of my married friends that have been married before me and longer than me, they were like giving me tips. This is crazy. But it was like, um, there were days, you know, as a woman, you know, our sex drive is may not be as high as a man and they’re in the mood and we’re not. So I was taught like, Oh, if you watch porn, if you masturbate before it’ll get you in the mood and then you can kinda get ready for him, you know? So it was a way that we, we use that for that.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: So, but then it’s like manipulation because your husband is thinking you’re turned on because of him and you’re not, you know, and so it’s like, okay.

Garrett: And sometimes it’s just, it’s okay. It’s healthy to not be in the mood sometimes.

Sabrina: Yeah. And your partners should understand that, you know, but a lot of times they don’t, you know, people can be selfish.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: But as a wife, you know, you’re trying to feel that need, you know, as who, like who wants to watch their husband and you know, horny and you’re not doing anything about it, you know, it’s almost like a recipe for disaster. So we kinda just use that as a way to like get up to their level and all very destructive to be honest. Um, but we didn’t know we’re young, we’re just trying to figure it out.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And um, but, but yeah, it was definitely desensitizing me because I found myself having sex with him and then afterwards still desiring the porn, still desiring the, toward the toy. Like it just wasn’t enough.

Garrett: Interesting. The reality is some have some, some women have a stronger sex drive than some men and so the situation can be reversed. But my question is, do you think that the false expectation of when I’m in the mood you need to be in the mood to, do you think that, do you think that pornography perpetuates that false expectation?

Sabrina: I think so. I think porn just changes your mindset and your expectations on everything. I think porn makes you believe that the people on this screen is how the people in your life are supposed to act and perform. You know, I never really seen, well, I never really got into if it’s there, but I never really seen porn, a porn actress, or whatever it’s called, where the other person just did not want to have sex.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: I think that would be like rape if they did it anyway. You know, like it always came up like, Oh, they’re equally both wanting to have sex, you know?

Garrett: Or sometimes in porn, like some scenarios that they’ll stage is that the girl or a guy will say, “No.”, but that no actually means yes.

Sabrina: Right. And so then, yeah, so it’s just, it’s, it’s really, it’s just dangerous cause you don’t, you don’t know the harms until you get out of it.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know? So once I got out of it, I was starting to identify issues in the relationship, issues with my friendships, you know, um, just more clarity, you know, more clarity with sex without it.

Garrett: And you said, you said you were more productive without it?

Sabrina: Absolutely. Yeah.

Garrett: Like you were able to accomplish more?

Sabrina: Absolutely. I mean the downtime that I would have and would typically like try to watch porn or masturbate are replaced that, you know, with reading or journaling or you know, something productive, you know? And before I just wouldn’t do that. It’s really a waste of time. And then depending on what level you’re at, it may take you a while to find something that is gonna even get you your high. You know, like half the battle was like finding the right video, which 40 minutes in you’re like, “Oh my God, I’ve watched all of this.” or none of this, you know? So…

Garrett: That is very interesting. That’s an interesting observation.

Sabrina: Yeah. Me and my friends have talked about that. Like sometimes we would come home from going out and we would know we would want to masturbate and like we just fall asleep trying to find a video like we wasted. We just can’t find anything because we’ve either seen it all or nothing just looks compelling toward the level we’re trying to be on that night, you know? And that’s, that’s dangerous.

Garrett: Do you think that at some point you were addicted to pornography or did, was it just an unhealthy habit?

Sabrina: I think once I knew that it was a problem and it was unhealthy and then I continued to do, it was an addiction. Now I think those different levels to every addiction, I think I would be naive to say, Oh, I wasn’t an addiction, an addict. Um, I just think I wasn’t a severe case, you know, but I knew it was affecting my life mom at any level and they was a problem and I kept doing it.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: You know?

Garrett: Yeah. Well there’s an as simple way to kind of define addiction is they call it like the three Cs and it’s if you Crave it, so you spend time seeking it and if you lose Control, so you need more and more often more hardcore version. And then if you have negative Consequences. So the, the three CS. And so that’s kind of a simple way, but it sounds like, it sounds like that you could have fit that at one point.

Sabrina: For sure.

Garrett: But the good news is that, um, we can transition our mindsets back to healthy state.

Sabrina: Yes.

Garrett: And so you were in that process through journaling and reading and, and it sounds like fitness. Um, so I was just wondering, as you were dating, did any of your relationships as you were dating, um, progressed to the point where you talked to that person about pornography? Like maybe they had a challenge in your, like your expectation was no.

Sabrina: Yes, absolutely.

Garrett: Even before Lamar?

Sabrina: No, just Lamar.

Garrett: Okay. Yeah. So I knew about Lamar. So interesting. So let’s fast forward to that then.

Sabrina: I haven’t had many relationships before Lamar.

Garrett: You were focusing on you.

Sabrina: I mean this is a four year period since I came home. 2016. We’re now in 2019 so there weren’t many in between that.

Garrett: So it was just you focusing on you, your health, your, your kids. Um, and then you met Lamar?

Sabrina: Yes.

Garrett: And the, for our audience that hasn’t listened to Lamar’s episode, we were able to meet up with Lamar and, uh, Sabrina in New York and we were able to record a conversation with Lamar Odom who, if some of you may not know the, he’s a two time champion with LA Lakers and now he’s on Dancing with the Stars and doing lots of cool stuff. Um, and so how did that progress to the point where you guys, that that discussion came up about pornography?

Sabrina: Okay. So very early one in the relationship, um, before Lamar and I were even having sex, like that early. Lamar would not, we would still spend a lot of time with each other, you know, for weeks and weeks. We were not having sex. We hadn’t had sex yet, but I would spend the night with him. And um, some nights he just wouldn’t even try to have sex with me. He would literally grab his phone and watch porn and masturbate and I just thought that was very, very weird.

Garrett: Would he do that right in front of you?

Sabrina: Right in the bed with me. He wouldn’t even hide it. He had no shame of it. It was normal to him. And before I really knew him, I didn’t really know how to have that conversation. But I would say like in my head I would be like, this isn’t make me feel good, you know, like, but I also knew I was the one with abstaining from sex.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: I made that, you know? So I was like, okay, maybe he’s just doing this because he knows like it’s early, I don’t want to have sex shit. You know? I was just really trying to get to know him.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: So once we began having sex and that habit continued, I was like, Lamar, I am laying right here. Like you didn’t even try to see if I wanted to have sex. Like you’re literally reaching for your phone.

Garrett: Interesting.

Sabrina: And he didn’t think anything was wrong with it. And so at first I just would watch the porn with him to like get into his mode.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And like, okay, well whatever. It’s not that difficult. I mean, it’s not that that, you know, I’ll just watch it with him. Maybe we’ll just use this to turn his vocal on. But it was desensitizing both of us, you know, like he couldn’t get pleased. I couldn’t get pleased. We’re looking more at the screen than we are each other’s bodies, you know? So…

Garrett: It’s like you’re connecting with pixels more than you are with each other.

Sabrina: Right. And so I just didn’t feel comfortable with that until it became like, now we’re arguing about it, you know? And now I’m just like, listen Lamar, “I know I am to be desired if you don’t desire me, something’s wrong with you.” You know, there’s nothing wrong with me. And, and he was like, “What do you mean I do desire you?” I said, “But how, when you’re reaching for your phone, you’re constantly masturbating.” Like it was constant. Like any chance he got, he was masturbating and I was like, Lamar, I, there’s, it’s going to be impossible for me to get you to ejaculate because you do it so much. You know? Like, I think there’s probably like an allotted amount per day. [laughter] And I’m like, I think you’re over that amount, you know? And so he just didn’t really understand what I was saying and I didn’t understand what he was going through. So it wasn’t until we were in Miami and he decided to go to a sex addict, anonymous meeting. He asked if I could go with him and I went, of course.

Garrett: That’s cool.

Sabrina: Um, and so it was that moment that I discovered Lamar is really a sex addict while I was listening to everyone share their stories and you know, a guy in particular pulled him to the side and was very open and transparent about his stories. And, um, one thing that clicked to me, well, two things, the first thing that really helped me understand that we are possibly in trouble is the fact that they mentioned no one compete with pornography. And I was like, that’s true. Like I am not even trying to compete with the porn, but if I wanted to I’ll probably lose because it’s so different. It’s so intense, you know? And then the second thing was, um, that I lost my train of thought.

Garrett: That’s okay.

Sabrina: But in the midst of talking, like hearing that, overhearing them, I was like, Lamar is a real sex addict and I was like, “I have to figure out what that really means in my relationship.” So after that, uh, Oh, this was the second thing I realized that when it comes to being a sex addict, there are, there is no morality, you know, a high as a high, you know, um, it doesn’t matter what you’re doing to get that high, it’s all the same high. And I know that to be true with drug addiction, you know, um, they go from one thing to the next thing. It’s just, you know, if you do anything to get that drug, you know. Um, so it’s the same with sex. It’s a drug. You’ll do anything to get that drug.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And I was like, that can get dangerous because if he’ll do anything to feel that, I don’t know if I’m even willing to be here for that. So we had to have a serious conversation. And I said to him, I said, “Lamar, you know, you’re a real sex addict. And that’s a problem for me because I’ve never experienced that. I don’t know how to deal with it. I don’t know if having sex with you was a good idea. I don’t know if withholding sex is a goo idea. I don’t know what to do, so I need to get some advice.” I need to get some help.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And so I called, um, a good friend of mine who’s married that I know struggle with sex addiction with his marriage. Thankfully he made it through and he’s still married, but I know he struggled greatly. And so I’ve got him on the phone. I prefer to man, because I didn’t want it to be like an attack of women on the bar. And so I put them on speaker and I said, hi, you know, I’m here with Lamar and you know, we just kinda talked it through and he was very open and transparent and then it gave me some skills and resources and knowledge on how to deal with it. But the one thing that really stuck out to me after the conversation was Lamar, his willingness to work on it…

Garrett: That’s cool.

Sabrina: … and me not having to push him. Um, but he said to me, he says, “Sabrina, you’re the first woman that has ever even talked to me about this. Women just deal with it. They just watched me do it. They just watch me engage and they don’t say anything.”

Garrett: Interesting.

Sabrina: Yeah. So that’s just kinda how the problem arose and how we initially began to deal with it.

Garrett: Interesting.

Sabrina: And I told him, you know, “That’s a deal breaker for me, Lamar. I’m sorry.” Um,…

Garrett: So you set that expectation?

Sabrina: Yeah. Very early. Like I say, I know me, it would drive me to be emotionally detached from, you know, as a woman, I need to be desired about the man that I’m with and I need that to look a certain way. You can save desire me and I believe you do, but you’re having too many distractions, you know? Um, so you’re not being able to actively show me, you desire me.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And so the first thing I said was, you know, um, we, the first step was you are not allowed to touch yourself if I am here. That was like the first baby step.

Garrett: I like that. So it’s all about the baby steps.

Sabrina: Yes. And so he said, okay fine, but I was, and I was leery of that because then I thought that meant I wouldn’t have to do it for him or I will become that new addiction.

Garrett: You would become, you would replace pornography. That was your concern.

Sabrina: Right. And I was like, but you know what, I got just create the boundary. Anyway, so that was the rule, but then the boundary was you don’t then get to use me, you know. So that was tough at first because who knows how long Lamar has been operating like this, you know, he naturally, which is reached for himself, you know, like just not even know when he’s doing it. I be like, Lamar, look at your hand.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: Like, Oh, I’m sorry, I didn’t even, you know, like, so just that, but I was very patient and then he decided, you know what, this part isn’t working. He was like, “So how about I just don’t watch porn at all.”

Garrett: Oh wow.

Sabrina: And I said, okay, that will be great. You know, because the thing was I was living with him and I wasn’t going to babysit him, so he had a lot of time away from me and I wasn’t going to stress out about what he’s doing in that time. And so obviously he was struggling while I was gone. He did. Well, I was there, but you know, that’s really just morning nights, you know, whenever we was hanging out with each other.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And so it got to the, and then, you know, I would check his phone and he knew that I would check his phone.

Garrett: So that was part of it.

Sabrina: Yeah. Like “Lamar, you’ve been on, you’ve been online doing this like all day.” And then, um, and I was like, “Lamar, did you know this is draining though? It takes your energy. You know, this is why you’re tired because you know, all these releases, I mean, it really relaxes you and you don’t have the energy to get up and be productive.”

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know, so he was realizing these things and saying “Huh? You’re right.” And so, um, when he decided that he wouldn’t watch porn at all, that then became, “Okay, when you leave, take my phone with you. That’s the only way I’m going to manage.”

Garrett: So he was increasing his awareness, his self awareness. That’s cool.

Sabrina: Yes, yes. And it, so, and I’m leaving stuff out, but like we got to that extreme case because I think it was times where I would know he was masturbating when I was gone, like so much that it would upset me when I got back and I would like, leave. And I’ll be like, no more. I’m not dealing with this. Like you got gotten messed up, you know, like, “I’m not that girl. I don’t know who you were dealing with that allowed this, but I’m telling you now I’m not putting up with it. So if you cannot figure out a way to get a handle of it, I am gone.” And I think that at that point he was like, “Okay, you’re right. This is a problem. Please take my phone when you leave. Okay. Just bring it back when you come back.” You know? And I was like, Okay, this is just a small step.” You know, it’s extreme, but it’s what works for him.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: And um, at that point, you know, we’re very committed in a relationship. You don’t, he didn’t have any issues with women calling his phone or anything like that. So he felt fine with me having his phone. And so we didn’t have secrets. So I think enough time of him just not doing it, cause it’s hard for him to match me without the porn, you know? Um, he needs a visual.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And, and then it’s hard for him to masturbate without another person there. So I think it just got very, um, just, he just kinda stopped desiring it as much. And so now it’s just not an issue at all because I think he’s like, his palette is now clean, but everything, you know what I’ve noticed is when you’re unhealthy, you’re just unhealthy, you know? So like if you’re eating unhealthy, if you’re drinking, if you’re smoking, if you’re… porn, it’s like all supports one another. Like one unhealthy habits supports the next unhealthy habit.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: So once he wasn’t watching porn and had more energy and was working out and replace the bat and drinking more water, his body was just literally cleaning it’s palette.

Garrett: That’s awesome.

Sabrina: And I watched it happen and I was like, “Lamar, you haven’t even desired it in a while.” And he was like “Oh, yeah, you’re right.”

Garrett: That’s cool. I was actually going to ask that because it’s a, it’s interesting cause everyone’s journey is different. But I was gonna ask you what he replaced that unhealthy habit with, but it sounds like it was exercise, healthy foods, connection with you.

Sabrina: Yeah, he had, um, it’s kinda corny, but like Lamar has a very strong desire for me not to leave him and, but, but, but he’s been left by a lot of people, you know, rather he, they had the right because he wasn’t being a good person or he’s dealt with losses of death, you know, whatever. Regardless of it, people process things differently. So to him, he processes failed relationships or different things as someone left him.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: And that happening to him and this relationship is not a risk he’s willing to take. And, and I honor him for that. You know, I’m not bragging. It’s like, no, I respect him and I’m patient with him because I know he feels this way.

Garrett: He’s experienced some major traumas in his life, that most… that we shouldn’t have to deal with, but we do have to deal with it as humans. And I think it sounds like he just really values this meaningful relationship that you guys have created. And so I think that’s very admirable. Very cool.

Sabrina: Yeah, he does. I wish more people would respect it, you know, with like, it’s healthy for him. You know, and it’s not a slap in the face to anyone else. I think everyone did the best job they could with what they knew to do. And with the tools they had, you know, he’s now almost 40. He was on a different level, you know, to compare the Laker Lamar to post NBA Lamar and he’s a totally different man.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know, he might have been ready then. You know, he really wasn’t ready when I met him, but he had a willingness to save a relationship. So…

Garrett: That’s cool.

Sabrina: Um, yeah,

Garrett: That’s awesome. Um, well Sabrina, we, we think you’re real cool. I mean, we think you’re awesome. [Laughter]

Sabrina: Well thank you.

Garrett: That might sound cheesy, but the reality is like, you’re cool. You’re, you’re, you’re doing good things in the world and um, we love to follow what you’re doing and, um, you sound, it sounds like you guys are on a healthy path and we are so happy for you, you and, uh, and him. Um, one question I did have, Sabrina, is regarding your kids because your kids are really young, six and seven years old.

Sabrina: Yeah.

Garrett: Um, at what point will you start talking to your kids about the, uh, the harmful effects of pornography? Do you know?

Sabrina: I think as soon as they get a cell phone, um, they don’t have phones yet.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: And I think as soon as I allowed them to have a phone, that is when I’ll start talking about images of sex, videos of sex. How does it make you feel? What are you going to do if you come across it? You know, I’m not, obviously I’m going to put blocks on their phones, but I’m not afraid of those conversations at all.

Garrett: That’s awesome.

Sabrina: Um, I wish I would’ve started with my niece a little earlier. I think I started when she was 10 and I was too late. Um, just the conversation of sex, you know, but, but I don’t know. This is the thing, you never know what will trigger you to want to watch porn. Everyone’s trigger is different, right? So I just want to hit it, you know, as early as I can, because sadness may be the trigger. Hunger, I don’t know. You know?

Garrett: Anger, hunger, stress, anxiety, depression,…

Sabrina: Yes. It can be anything.

Garrett: escapism.

Sabrina: Right. For me it was an escape for Lamar it’s an escape, you know, so I’m very early because, because I’ve been to so much, how would I try to avoid as much as possible with my children, you know? And I think the more knowledge they have on things, the more they can make a conscious decision to avoid it instead of trying to deal with it once an issue.

Garrett: Exactly. The more knowledge and truth they have, it’s gonna make them more competent to navigate life. So that’s good.

Sabrina: Absolutely. And you know, um, I always, anytime I do an interview or speak in general, I always want people to feel like they can take, there’s something tangible they can take away from saying, so to women in particular, I just want to give them this. Um, cause I want people to feel like what I attained with Lamar is attainable. Like I don’t think we’re aware of case.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know, we’re not like what we did is not like magical. And it’s like, Oh wow, that’s great, but here I am struggling. I can’t get my dad to do anything.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: Um, it is attainable. It starts with you though. It starts with you creating a boundary and really putting your foot down. You know, if you are not OK with something, just don’t accept it. It’s really that simple. They, if they love you and value the relationship, they will navigate around that boundary. I guarantee it.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: You know, it’s the consistent allowing of it is what makes it so bad. Because if you’re just kinda like, Oh, what’s their issue? And I’m just gonna wait until they get better at it or however they’re choosing to deal with it. Like if you know your worth and what you really like, and you say, no, this is a no go for me. And you stick to that. More women will see that more men are more prone to saying, okay, well I can’t do this because she doesn’t like it and I like her and I want to be a part of her life so I have to remove this, you know? Um, so that is the one thing that I want women to become more aware of.

Garrett: That’s amazing advice. Setting the expectation. Boundaries are healthy. Um, open communication is healthy.

Sabrina: Yes. Yes. And I look at it like, I think of it as, you know, when we’re driving and we come to like those little orange block things or whatever that tells us we can’t go that way.

Garrett: Right, a barricade.

Sabrina: A barrier. Right. So, okay, “I can’t go this way because that’s a boundary, a barrier. But I didn’t want another way to be to still get to that.” Right. It’s the same as the same thing in life with us, you know, to get to me, you can’t come through this way. You know, like you can’t have access to me if you’re trying to watch porn, you know? That’s the, the, the road that you see. But I blocked that road, so you have to go around, you know, I’m not gonna, I’m not gone. I’m not unattainable. It’s not like you have to stare at me and gaze. He’s like, “Oh, it’d be great to get over there.” You know? It’s just like you have to find another way.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: And the other way is the safe way for me. It’s the healthy way for me is the best route to me. So, um, and that is just how I live all my relationship, you know, like, and people, women more so than anyone who, people in general need to learn that, you know, like create the way to you instead of saying, “Okay well here I’m open.” and then you get here you’re agitated because of what they bring.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: You know, cause think about the barriers. There’s going to be a lot of gravel, you know, who knows what kind of construction’s going on. You want to bring all that mess to me, dirt and sand and rocks and noise and you know, that’s why they don’t want you to go that way.

Garrett: Yeah.

Sabrina: The smooth road is over here, you know, so just a great analogy to use, you know, and being in a relationship or starting new ones.

Garrett: I love it. You are awesome. Sabrina, you guys, you guys recently announced you guys are going to have a television show, correct?

Sabrina: Yes we are. And we’re really excited cause we talk a lot about this on our show.

Garrett: Cool. Are you able to talk to that a little bit when, when it’s going to air?

Sabrina: So we don’t know exactly the dates yet. That all depends on editors and um, you know, they kind of have their vision of putting stuff together. Um, but it will be very sooner, probably sometime this year for sure. Um, and what really excited though. Um, we can’t say one network yet until they start actually releasing like teasers and commercials or however that works.

Garrett: Right.

Sabrina: But I’m very close so I’m excited just to get the content out there. Yeah.

Garrett: Very exciting. Congratulations.

Sabrina: Thank you. This is really good. This is really good for us.

Garrett: Yeah, it is. Well, it’s good for the world to Sabrina and I’m once again returning kind of like what I said at the very first is when I had that opportunity to meet you in Manhattan, I felt like you’re a very positive person and this conversation is no different. You’re just spreading positivity and spreading knowledge and um, at the same time setting boundaries and helping other people. So anyway, I just want to say thank you.

Sabrina: Well, you are very welcome. And thank you for having me on the podcast and allowing me to share my story, a piece of my story.

Garrett: Yeah, absolutely. It was our pleasure. Um, well we will send you and Lamar some more merchandise.

Sabrina: Great! I’m looking forward to that. I literally have my porn kills love shirt on now. No, Lamar and I both wore them today. We didn’t do it on purpose. We just, you know, when you just go out the house, you just grabbing something to throw on. Like these are like our favorite grab-and-go shirts.

Garrett: I love it. That’s cool. We’ll send you some more. Um, and let us know if we can do anything for you guys. We’re always gonna support you guys. So, yeah.

Sabrina: Thank you, we appreciate it and I love the movement that you have and everything that you stand for is awesome.

Garrett: Great. Well, we appreciate the support. It means a lot and you’re making a difference. So…

Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight the New Drug is a non-religious, non-legislative organization that exists to provide indidviuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on it’s harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts. Like we mentioned at the beginning of this episode, #NoPornovember begins this Friday, November 1st. We to invite you, if you haven’t already, to give up porn for the month of November. If you’re looking for tips and/ or motivation for #NoPornovember, check the links attached to this episode, and follow Fight the New Drug on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube.