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Garrett: My name is Garrett Jonsson, and you’re listening to Consider Before Consuming, a podcast by Fight the New Drug. We want these conversations to be educational, uplifting, and hopeful. As we sit down with experts, influencers, activists, and people with personal accounts, we cover a wide variety of topics that may be triggering to some, you can refer to the episode notes for a specific trigger warning- listener discretion is advised.

Today’s episode is with Nicholas Kristof. He’s an American journalist two time Pulitzer Prize winner, and columnist at the New York times since 2001. His opinion piece published in December, 2020 titled “The Children of Pornhub” rattled the world when it gave visibility to the victims of image-based sexual abuse and child sexual abuse materials that are shared on porn sites and social media platforms. During this conversation we discussed why he decided to write a piece on this topic, changes that Pornhub has made since his piece, how victims and survivors helped bring about these changes, and if he plans on writing a follow-up piece with that being said, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Hello?

Nicholas Kristof: Hi, let me just turn my volume up. Hi, how are you doing?

Garrett: Great. How are you?

Nicholas Kristof: Good. Really good. Good to meet you.

Garrett: Yeah. Good to meet you.

Nicholas Kristof: Okay. How does that, uh, how does that sound?

Garrett: Sounds good on my end. It sounds really good.

Nicholas Kristof: Good, good.

Garrett: You just got the little lapel mic there?

Nicholas Kristof: Yep.

Garrett: It looks like you’re a professional. It looks like you’ve done this before.

Nicholas Kristof: [laughter] a little bit. A little bit.

Garrett: Yeah. I can imagine. Where are you geographically?

Nicholas Kristof: New York. Just outside New York, but heading back to Oregon. Uh, probably in, uh, uh, next week or so, uh, where I’m from.

Garrett: Yeah, I lived a year in Oregon.

Nicholas Kristof: Oh, where’d you live?

Garrett: In Portland.

Nicholas Kristof: Okay.

Garrett: Yeah, I was really young, so my family moved there. I don’t remember it much, but we go on a road trip almost every other year and we include the Oregon coast in that road trip.

Nicholas Kristof: Isn’t that coast just beautiful?

Garrett: Yeah.

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah.

Garrett: It really is. You were born raised there, right?

Nicholas Kristof: Yup. Yup. Yup.

Garrett: How much time do you spend in New York versus Oregon?

Nicholas Kristof: Um, I mean, traditionally it’s been more time in New York, but the last few years, because of the most recent book we did and because, well, cause my mom is getting older and she’s there. So it’s getting closer to, you know, to half half or, you know, 40% here, 40% there and another 20% somewhere else.

Garrett: Right. Well, speaking of which, because one of the things that I was amazed by, as I learned more about you was all of the different places that you have lived and correct me if I’m wrong, but you’ve lived on four continents and you’ve traveled to over 150 countries. Is that right?

Nicholas Kristof: That’s right.

Garrett: Wow. So is that part of your journalism?

Nicholas Kristof: Um, my dad was a world war II refugee, and so, you know, he was very international. Uh, he spoke many languages and so I, I inherited that, that wanderlust you might say.

Garrett: Yeah.

Nicholas Kristof: Um, but then it also came about just as a reporter. I was based abroad for the New York Times for oh 15, 16 years. And, um, I, you know, I came to believe that it’s really important, not just to talk to a few experts in Washington, but to actually go out and talk to local people and get out of the Capitol. And it’s very much a kind of reporting I like to do.

Garrett: Right. And you’re the winner of two Pulitzer prizes?

Nicholas Kristof: That’s correct.

Garrett: Do you think that that travel and that investigative spirit that you have, do you think that that helped in winning those?

Nicholas Kristof: I suppose so, um, I mean, one of them was when I was based in China and so that was, you know, clearly a function of speaking Chinese, getting out, talking to people and the other, uh, was mostly for Darfur and there again, it was a matter of going to a really remote place and trying to piece together a genocide that had been just, you know, astonishingly brutal, but because it wasn’t a very remote place, it wasn’t getting attention.

Garrett: Yeah. Well, we are, uh, we’re grateful to have you, you’re an accomplished person you’ve accomplished so much in your life. Um, just to name a few, you studied law at Harvard.

Nicholas Kristof: No, at Oxford.

Garrett: At Oxford. Okay.

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah.

Garrett: And you’ve like I mentioned traveled, you’ve lived on four continents. You’ve been a columnist for the New York times since 2001. Um, what’s something that you’re proud of that we haven’t talked about yet?

Nicholas Kristof: Well, I mean, I have raised, I think, three amazing kids and, uh, you know, we’ve traveled a lot together. Uh, they’ve done some really good things and I think I’ve, um, I think I’ve helped in my journalism career put some issues on the map that maybe wouldn’t have got attention, otherwise the Darfur genocide, uh, for one, um, I think I, uh, there were some, some, you know, women’s health issues like obstetric fistula that I think got more attention. Um, human trafficking, I think I got a little more attention to, um, and, um, so I mean, that’s all, you know, that’s all encouraging.

Garrett: Right, well, we, uh, admire your work. And the reason why you’re with us today is the name of our podcast is Consider Before Consuming and we put forth information, um, that people should consider before consuming pornography. And so I want to start off, you kind of already mentioned the awareness that you’ve brought to sex trafficking, but I wanted to better understand how you first became aware of or interested in, um, image based abuse on porn sites?

Nicholas Kristof: So it, um, I mean, it really flowed out of my work on sex trafficking and, you know, that went back to one trip that I made and it was 1996 or 1997, I forget. And I was based in Tokyo. I made a trip to the Philippines in Cambodia to look at, uh, uh, trafficking of children and, uh, in Cambodia. I just could not believe what I was seeing. I mean, there were, um, I went to a place where young girls were being auctioned off for their virginity. Um, I went to a brothel where there was a 15 year old girl who’d been and a 14 year old girl who were, had been kidnapped and were, were imprisoned in that brothel. And they were going to be there until they died of AIDS. And I just could not believe this was, was happening. It was like slavery.

Um, and so then I began reporting about that from other places, uh, including in the U.S. and I was very distressed to see to the degree to which this was a problem in the U.S. as well. Um, not of the magnitude that it was in summation countries, but I thought we didn’t have the moral right to tell other countries to clean up their act unless we make greater efforts to do so at home. And so then, um, I had written occasionally about, uh, child sexual abuse imagery in this country. And I thought there was this misperception. I mean, I think a lot of Americans think that this involves, you know, some, you know, some 15 year old girl pulls off her shirt or something. And in fact, you know, as you know, it’s often about, you know, prepubescent kids who were being raped in every which way and, um, and with impunity.

Um, and, uh, so then last summer, I, I sort of been following the Pornhub, I was aware of it, but I wasn’t didn’t really know what to think of it. And then, um, ask some people then went online and some of the first images that I saw were of, uh, unconscious women who were, uh, being stripped and raped and the rapist to prove that they were unconscious were touching their eyeballs, uh, to show that these women were, um, you know, drugged out, drunk. I don’t know what it was, uh, uh, and, uh, you know, I just, you know, you look at this unconscious women being raped in a company, a major internet company is monetizing that? Uh, and you think about what that does to those women when they find out that this rape, I mean, they’re not only brutalized or half an hour or something where they brutalized for the rest of their lives for all to see. And, um, so for me, at least it’s, you know, it’s one thing to have this debate at 30,000 feet about, about, uh, rights and how and regulation. And then when you actually see those images, that was, that was, you know, really pretty horrifying. And that took me up. And that’s when I decided I want to write about this.

Garrett: And since your piece on, on Pornhub, um, that happened in December of 2020. So really recently, um, can you talk to some of the changes that have been made, um, that Pornhub has made since December of 2020?

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah. Um, so I mean, I should clarify that it wasn’t, that Pornhub read my piece and said, “Oh boy, Nick, you really wrote it very effectively. We’re convinced.” Well, you know, basically what happened was, uh, the credit card companies that then said, okay, we’re going to investigate. And then very promptly, they said, “Okay, there’s illegal content on Pornhub. And we will therefore, uh, not process, uh, credit card payments, uh, for the company.” Um, uh, at least for, in terms of, um, direct services. I, I think that they will still accept credit card payments for ads, but, uh, and that, that really, I mean, that shook up porn hub in a way that my writing did not. And so as a result, Pornhub, um, uh, stopped, uh, the downloading of videos and most important, they, um, took off all the, um, the, the unverified images on their website and which is about 10 million images, about two thirds of their, of their images and videos. And, um, so that was, uh, you know, that was a huge, a huge transformation. I got a note from one young woman, who’d had a naked video of herself on, on Pornhub for the last year. She’d been unable to get it down. And she said that, uh, and it was taken down, uh, now, and she said, you know, “I can breathe again.” That’s, that’s very cool.

Garrett: Yeah. That’s neat. Speaking to those changes that Pornhub has made since, since December of 2020, are you proud of the changes that have been made?

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah, I I’d say I am. I mean, we, I think that in journalism, so I’m a columnist and, you know, so I’m in the opinion business, but I actually think that our impact is less in terms of changing people’s minds on things that they’ve thought about. So if I write about Donald Trump, if I write about the middle East, if I write about abortion, I don’t actually change people’s minds. They tend, you know, they’ve already had positions, um, where I think we do have a real impact is our ability to shine our light on an issue that people are not paying attention to thereby projected onto the agenda. May people spill their coffee in the morning as they read the paper and, you know, force difficult conversations about subjects that are hard to talk about. And I think this kind of child sexual abuse imagery is one of them.

I think a lot of Canadians in particular were unaware that they were hosts to a company that had that kind of imagery, uh, online. And, you know, that Canada was in effect inflicting, uh, rape videos on the world. And I, you know, I think Canadians were embarrassed by that ashamed of that, and they’ve been taking action. Um, but you know, I’ve got to say that Pornhub is one company among a number, and it becomes really important that one doesn’t just stop with Pornhub because then immediately the business just flows to two other rival companies. And, uh, you, you haven’t really made a, uh, uh, a difference. Uh, so you’ve got to it’s what has to go after the, the sector and not just one individual company.

Garrett: Right. You talked about, uh, one survivor that reached out to you and said how your article was the spark to getting that removed. Um, what can you talk to the role that survivors played in bringing about these changes?

Nicholas Kristof: They were, they were absolutely critical because, you know, it’s those stories that move people. Um, as I said, if you have a debate at 30,000 feet about regulation, about porn, then people have all kinds of different views. When you hear about a 14 year old girl, who’s, you know, who has attempted suicide repeatedly because of, um, naked videos that were put on Pornhub that, you know, I mean, destroyed her life is a little bit strong, but, you know, were truly devastating. Uh, and as a company made money off her, um, then I think that anybody’s going to, um, feel differently and feel sympathetic and feel that there is an injustice here that needs to be remedied. And so I think it’s really important to give a voice to those survivors and, and explain what, you know, what this means in real life. And, uh, so, um, they, you know, and I must say it was, it was hard to get survivors to tell these stories, especially with their names attached.

And, um, one of the challenges in journalism is, you know, is that if we just write about a, you know, a 14 year old girl somewhere, then it doesn’t have the verisimilitude, it doesn’t have the power of being able to give her a name and hometown and show her a picture and have her talking about it. And it’s, it’s that, uh, it’s that reality that moves people, but you also worry about the effect on her. Um, you, and, you know, these people have been through so much already, and they’re humiliated, they’re stigmatized, then to ask them to step up and relate all this to go over the most humiliating period of their lives, uh, is asking a lot of them. And, um, you know, they were fantastic to cooperate.

Garrett: Right. Yeah. Um, you’ve talked a little bit about Canada and that’s because Pornhub is, is headquartered in Canada. Is that why you mentioned Canada?

Nicholas Kristof: That’s correct.

Garrett: Yeah. Um, can you talk to the parenting company, a porn hub, MindGeek, um, based on the changes that have been made, um, what do you anticipate will happen with mind geek in the long run?

Nicholas Kristof: So I think that MindGeek is probably going to pay a significant price for the, um, its abuses in the past in terms of, uh, civil liability and criminal liability. I, you know, I don’t know, but I, I think, uh, you know, it may well face criminal liability for some of these, uh, videos that were on the site. And I think it very likely will as well, um, in, uh, lawsuits in Canada and the U.S. um, and so, uh, I think that’s a real shadow over, uh, the company’s financial future. Um, I, um, I think that, I mean, my sense of the business model, it’s very hard to get them or anybody to talk about the business model of it. But I think that they actually had a business model that, uh, would have been, uh, you know, if they’d been willing to earn 20% less money, um, that they could have done it without having that, that liability. And they in the long run would have been much more, you know, they would have saved themselves a ton of money and save themselves their jobs and maybe their company. And I think they risk it all by going too far, but not having enough moderators by telling, letting the moderators approve things that should never have been approved. Um, but you know, that’s, uh, that’s when companies are on edge, um, too often, they do that.

Garrett: Right. In your article, you, uh, told the story about a victim who in the aftermath of her abuse became homeless. And, um, since your article, because of your article, a GoFundMe me was started, and now that person is off the streets and hoping to start Vet school. Um, can you talk to that experience a little bit more?

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah. Her name is Serena Fleites and she’s, um, and you know, it’s a tribute to Serena that she was willing to, to use her name and, um, you know, that, that has so much power. It’s very evocative. Uh, she’s 19. Now, when she was in the eighth grade, uh, she, she was a very, very sheltered kid, you know, had never made out with a boy. And then in eighth grade she has a crush on a ninth grader. Um, he asks her for a naked photo. She’s really flattered. She doesn’t really know anything about the internet. She sends him a photo, you know, he asked for another, he asks for some videos, she sends them then, you know, he shows them to some other kids. They are passed around and then they end up on Pornhub and, uh, her, I mean, her, her just her life just, just collapses.

And then boys are telling her that, “Okay, send me a naked video to where I’m going to send these to your parents.” Uh, she is humiliated to go to school. Her mom drops her off at the front school gate. She goes through, walks out the side gate and just skip school. Um, she transfers to a new school, but there are some kids from the old school who are at the new school and worried immediately goes around and she ends up, uh, dropping out of school. She ends up self-medicating, uh, with, um, meth and heroin. Um, she attempted suicide. Uh, and you know, this is, this is an, A student and things are going fine. And then she does this really dumb thing. And, but every 14 year old kid in human history has done really dumb things. And we recover. You have, I have, but those dumb things we did at 14 don’t haunt us the way.

Uh, and they, in this case, it, you know, Serena did something really stupid. And then Pornhub did something to monetize that stupidity in ways that hugely inflamed the situation. And, um, so, you know, if she had just sent that video to that boy and he showed it to some others, yeah. That would have, I mean, that would have been a real hassle for her. Um, but she would have recovered. And instead, uh, she, when I talked to her, she was homeless, living in a car with three dogs, and dogs were the only creatures that were forgiving that loved her unconditionally. And, um, and, uh, then, and she, you know, and, and Serena told her a story with, uh, you know, humility. She acknowledged that she’d done really dumb stuff, and he just wanted to warn other kids about, um, how you do something stupid like that and it, you don’t get another chance.

And, um, so, um, uh, and we took, uh, we, we sent a photographer to spend a day with her, um, and the, uh, photos ran with the story and I think readers were really moved. Um, and they, um, you know, they stepped up, they, we got plenty of readers offering her, uh, housing of one kind or another, uh, a couple of different vets offered her jobs in their, in their, in their veterinary offices. Uh, people, um, um, were offering her money to go to, she wanted, she wanted to go to, uh, to be a school, to be a vet tech. They were offering her help with that. And one a billionaire stepped up and offered her, you know, to, to pay her tuition. And so that’s all, that’s all unfolding right now.

Garrett: That’s so cool.

Nicholas Kristof: And so it’s, you know, it’s, it’s very reassuring and it’s great to see readers step up. It’s great to see the impact on Serena, but that is not a scalable model of how to help victims of Pornhub.

Garrett: Right. Have you had more victims reach out about their experiences with Pornhub since the article?

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah, I have. Um, and you know, that’s, that’s wonderful and moving, uh, you know, this one girl who said that, eh, when a naked video is taken down of her, uh, that she can breathe again and you know, that that’s, that’s, that’s great. Um, but, uh, but then again, I heard of a, a girl who at 16, it had a video put up on the site and, um, her life went downhill as it did for Serena and she attempted suicide, but unlike Serena, she succeeded. And so, uh, she is now gone. Uh, and, uh, so, um, you know, there’s, there was a lot of devastation, uh, that has unfolded because of this.

Garrett: Right. Yeah, that’s a very true statement. Um, I’m curious to know a little bit more about the pushback that you’ve received as a journalist in general, and specifically reporting on this issue.

Nicholas Kristof: Sure. I mean, so some of the pushback is, um, um, I say it comes in two kinds. It’s, you know, so one element of it is harassment. Uh, some, uh, death threats, um, people, uh, apparently there’s a Reddit, uh, uh, there’s a subreddit that has gone after me particularly. And so, um, so people on that subreddit have been, uh, just kind of descending on me, um, uh, and, you know, but that’s, I’m, I dish it out. I can take it. I kind of think that if somebody tweets a death right at you, it’s probably not to be taken terribly seriously. And, uh, so, um, I’m, uh, uh, you know, but that’s kind of one category and the other is, I’d say a more, um, kind of intellectual kind, which is, uh, is, is criticism. Look, I I’m socially liberal and I, uh, quoted, uh, uh, Exodus Cry and, uh, Laila Mickelwait, who has been very, very active on this issue.

And so there is a line of critique that, uh, “Look you’re working with, um, uh, you know, people who have a homophobic, uh, um, extreme right wing point of view in ways that actually hugely disadvantaged, very marginalized sex workers.” and, um, and S and then there, you know, “So you must be, you must be ultra right-wing yourself.” and so on. And, and, um, um, you know, my, uh, you know, I, I’m sure that I disagree with Laila and with Exodus Cry on all kinds of issues. I, I, I don’t think there’s a basis for saying that they’re homophobic, uh, whatever, but I, uh, I’m sure I disagree profoundly with them. I also think it’s really important for liberals and conservatives to actually make common cause on some of these issues and, um, in the area of human trafficking, um, we have a Trafficking Victims Protection Act (TVPA) because bleeding heart feminists were willing to work with bleeding heart evangelicals to pass a major bill at the end of the Clinton administration that then the Bush administration implemented, uh, aggressively and, uh, you know, likewise, uh, AIDS because, you know, near and dear to my heart, that I reported on an awful lot.

And that involved a lot of, um, um, again, you know, bleeding heart international health activists with bleeding heart evangelicals in the Bush administration that, uh, has resulted in the PEPFAR program, which saved 20 million lives so far. And so I’m, um, I’m actually a great believer and trying to bridge some of the faith gap, some of the left-right gaps and finding a common cause. And if we can find common cause and go after a company that is monetizing the rape of children, uh, then, uh, that’s, you know, that’s great. And I’m, you know, I, I think I disagree probably we, you probably with a number of other people about in that I’m not, uh, intrinsic, I don’t, I’m not going to really have a view about porn itself, but to me, this is not an issue of, of being against porn, this an issue of being against, you know, child rape.

And, uh, but again, if we can, we don’t have to agree on everything we can, if we can find a common denominator and agreeing that, you know, 14, imagery of 14 year old girls shouldn’t be on a site, then let’s, let’s, let’s agree on that. Let’s go after that. So I find, I see no shame in working with people who, uh, disagree with me. And in fact, I think that’s how you get things done.

Garrett: Right.

Nicholas Kristof: Um, and, um, you know, there, there is, there has been a critique as well that, um, uh, that some, uh, people, uh, in modelhub, some sound adult performers have lost their incomes because of, uh, Visa and MasterCard cutting off payments. Um, I think that that is somewhat overstated because, uh, the credit card companies are still, um, allow paying for ad allowing their cards to be used for ads on their sites.

And that is a significant part of the revenue, if four people on a modelhub, and then there are also plenty of other, uh, sites that they can perform on. Um, and, um, you know, at the end of the day, you look at trade-offs and it’s, you know, it’s, I’m sure that when Harvey Weinstein was arrested people and his business folded people, lost their jobs and that’s too bad and that’s unfortunate, but it was still worth it to have Harvey Weinstein arrested. Uh, likewise, uh, uh, if there are some marginalized folks out there who lose some income on modelhub, I think that’s unfortunate, but I also think of people who no longer have, um, videos themselves, selves, vendor, aged kids, uh, on Pornhub and who can breathe again. And, uh, that’s a trade off I’m willing to make.

Garrett: Right. Well, what’s next for you? Um, in regards to this topic specifically, is it something you’ve developed a long-term interest in, um, will you write another piece, a follow-up piece at some point now?

Nicholas Kristof: Well, we’ll see, as I said, I had written, uh, you know, uh, about it to some degree before, and I suspect I, uh, I will, again, I’m interested in, um, XVideos in particular because XVideos are the, you know, that holding company that empire, um, is arguably even bigger in terms of traffic than, uh, the Pornhub slash MindGeek empire. And, um, it’s, uh, you know, it’s red lines seem to be even fewer on, um, on XVideos. I noticed when I was poking around that, if you search, uh, middle school, then it among it suggestions, it offered elementary school, you know, I mean that H you know, how can a, one of the top 10 websites in the world offer you elementary school kids? Uh, so they, I noticed that after I wrote that they did take out that suggestion, um, you know, but, um, I, I do think that it’s really important that, uh, we don’t go after just a company, but a sector or otherwise, you know, then the, then the problem is just bounced, just some other company. Um, and, uh, so, um, so I may well come back and, and look at, uh, XVideos, uh, and that empire and, uh, and, you know, probably tell it in much the same way with the stories of victims and the human cost.

Garrett: Right. Well, Nick, we appreciate your time today. Uh, we know your time, you know, we know you’re a busy individual, so we appreciate you joining us today.

Nicholas Kristof: Absolutely. And I appreciate, you know, your, uh, listeners interest in activism on an issue that I think is a really important human rights topic. And, um, one that isn’t talked enough about, and, you know, for that, I salute you Garrett, because I, as a journalist, I’ve come to conclude that we make the worst policy as a country about issues that are, that are hard to talk about. And that’s, you know, it’s mental health, it’s domestic violence, it’s anything to do with sex, it’s drugs. And, uh, we have to just break those taboos and have conversations, maybe difficult, awkward conversations. And then that lays a basis for an understanding which leaves a basis for better policies. So hats off to you and keep up the good work.

Garrett: Yeah. Thank you very much in regards to how, or I guess in regards to us tagging you on social media and things, are our audience reaching out to you? Are you comfortable with that?

Nicholas Kristof: Oh, of course.

Garrett: Okay.

Nicholas Kristof: Yeah.

Garrett: We will make sure to link your social media accounts to this episode, and so that our audience can reach out and show you some love and support as well. So,

Nicholas Kristof: Absolutely. Thank you. Take care.

Garrett: Okay. Thanks. Take Care.

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Garrett: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight the New Drug is a non-religious and non legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography, by raising awareness on its harmful facts, using only science backs and personal accounts. If you want to learn more about today’s guest and the conversation we had, you can check out the links included with this episode.

Again, big, thanks to you for listening to this conversation. As you go about your day, we invite you to increase your self awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots and consider before consuming.