Intro (00:00):
This episode is the final part of our two part interview with Laila Mickelwait, author of Take Down Inside The Fight to Shut Down PornHub for Child Abuse, Rape and Sex Trafficking Founder and CEO of the Justice Defense Fund, and the founder of the Trafficking Hub Movement. If you haven’t yet listened to part one, we encourage you to do so [00:00:30] before jumping into this episode. In the second part of our interview, Laila discusses the intricate details and challenges faced in the fight against PornHub, highlighting the critical role of credit card companies in monetizing illegal content. Laila also shares about the powerful testimonies from victims during parliamentary hearings, emphasizing their crucial role in driving change. Join us to hear about the ongoing efforts to hold PornHub accountable and the powerful ripple effects of advocacy in this crucial battle against [00:01:00] sexual exploitation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (01:10):
I do wanna talk a little bit about going back to kind of the idea of if we wanna create change, we have to affect their revenue. One thing you do so well in your book, take Down Inside the Fight to Shut Down PornHub for Child Abuse, Rape and Sex Trafficking. Part one of this episode, we’ve already covered you [00:01:30] approach this so brilliantly and kind of working with the team of others. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of the role that Bowie has played in all of this, and then also what your interactions with credit card companies looked like, kind of at this time and, and what the objective was, what the goals were there?

Laila (01:47):
Yeah. So thanks to many advisors and help, you know, people who were just colleagues and comrades and people who had been in the anti-trafficking fight for a long [00:02:00] time. You know, one of them who I especially appreciate in the book is Brad Miles formerly with Polaris Project now with Panorama and the experience that he had in the back page fight, like, you know, many of those in anti-trafficking were involved in the back page fight and kind of looking back and trying to lessons learned, like what, what was you know, what happened during that fight that was helpful and effective. And one of the things was the idea of the credit card companies and how [00:02:30] at that time, sheriff Tom Dart, like actually called out the credit card companies and, you know, said, look, you’re monetizing child sex trafficking. And so that was kind of a template for this idea of they play such an important role.

(02:45):
If we’re following the money trying to end this corporate abuse, then one of the most effective things we could do is go after the mechanism for monetization. Interestingly, a judge and the federal, you know, she’s a featured [00:03:00] survivor in the book, and her case that she filed, she filed not only against Mind Gig it’s owners, but also against Visa for their role. And the judge said Visa gave PornHub the very tool through which to enact the crime of benefiting from child trafficking. So they were critical, like the credit card companies were critical, and we understood this pretty early on, and there was a group of anti-trafficking organizations [00:03:30] and advocates who were like already on that trail and thought, thought, yes, like this is a good thing to pursue. So we came together to work on that, and it was confirmed, you know, by the attorneys that were gonna pursue that, that this was an important strategy as well for accountability purposes. So yeah, so that’s kind of became the plan is we have to go after the credit card companies to stop monetizing this illegal criminal content and bring it [00:04:00] to their attention.

Fight The New Drug (04:01):
And you had some meetings with them, they didn’t necessarily all respond right away. One thing that I think is particularly interesting is that you hadn’t necessarily heard back from them, but you heard from a moderator that some changes to the processes for content moderation had been made within the company. And that was at the request of some of these credit card companies who reached out to them and said, Hey, you have to make some changes, or we might have to make some changes, it sounds like. So and one other thing I did wanna note [00:04:30] while we’re talking about moderation is I thought it was so interesting that the moderator you spoke with mentioned that all of the moderators started just leaving your Twitter up at some point, because that was the quickest way that became the quickest way to get problematic content removed, is you would tweet about it publicly and say, what’s this doing on your platform?

(04:49):
And then that’s actually when it would be removed because they were kind of keeping an eye on you. So everything you experienced in 2020 that all kind of built up to [00:05:00] you reaching out to Nicholas Kristoff from the New York Times, we’ve had him on this podcast before, speaking about this article many people have seen the article, the Children of PornHub, but tell us a little bit about that process. You know, why was the article so important in the fight to hold PornHub accountable? What were some of the outcomes of that article, including some of these things with credit card companies that we’ve just talked about?

Laila (05:25):
Yes, that was such an important moment, and we would not [00:05:30] be where we’re at today in this fight. We have lo we have a ways to go still for sure, but, you know, the progress that has been made would not have been made without Nick Christophe and what he did through his investigation and that groundbreaking article The Children of PornHub. And you know, for context before that, it’s like, you know, from February all the way to December, I mean, this is almost a year of fighting so hard of battling the credit card companies again and again, [00:06:00] and trying to engage and provide more evidence and like push this thing forward. And there had been so many different articles that had already been written. I think by that time it was like 300 that had been written or more Yeah. On this. And the petition had already 2 million signatures, but PornHub had more videos on the site than it had at the beginning of 2020.

(06:22):
And they were making more money than they had ever made in the history of their existence because of Coronavirus, because people were locked [00:06:30] at home and they were blasting all these PR stunts to the world of free PornHub premium and all of this stuff. And so they were actually doing better at the end of 2020 than they ever were before. And I remember just being in this moment of desperation, before Nick Christophe’s article came out, because I didn’t know how it would be received. I mean, whether it would just kind of be printed and then everybody would be on with the next thing or what would happen. And [00:07:00] so I was blown away like everybody else when he released the Children of Porn heaven. And it had so much impact thanks to the amazing work he did, and speaking with so many victims and just putting together such a powerful article where he didn’t mince words. Like he was just straight to the point. Like he ended that article saying that, you know, porn, porn Hubb is Jeffrey Epstein times a thousand. And [00:07:30] it just broke things open in a way that like hadn’t happened. So that was a pivotal moment in this fight was when that happened.

Fight The New Drug (07:40):
And what are some of the, the things that started to kind of immediately, very quickly because of that article take place?

Laila (07:48):
Well, suddenly, you know, there was this enormous, like bigger than ever spotlight on what was happening. And journalists were doing follow on stories. You know, [00:08:00] first it’s like hundreds and then thousands and every thing that happened created a new news cycle. So, you know, we’d have Justin Trudeau who responded in Canada within, you know, 24 hours of the article being released. And then we had members of Parliament in Canada calling for an investigation. And we had you know, most importantly, the credit card companies were being swarmed by journalists asking the question that Nick asked in his article, why [00:08:30] are they still doing business with PornHub? And so they were being pressured now, like from the outside, right? Because before this is just like more private conversations that are happening, not, not, you know, it’s, it’s, they’re not budging Now, suddenly they have journalists from the outside asking this question, a huge spotlight being put on the company.

(08:50):
And then people being activated by this article, for example, bill Ackman who activated by reading that article to help. And, and so then [00:09:00] they said, we’re invest, they made an announcement that they were gonna investigate PornHub for the, for what was written in the article, horn hub’s in a frenzy. They’re, you know, most concerned about losing the credit cards, probably more than anything, this is their worst fear, their worst nightmare that this could happen. And that’s when they deleted 80% of the site in 24 hours where 10 million videos and over 30 million images were suddenly gone from PornHub, [00:09:30] and then more happened after that. But that was kind of like the immediate impact of that article.

Fight The New Drug (09:38):
Yes. And for anyone who doesn’t know, the reason that content was removed was because they couldn’t verify the users, which was the very process you went through, the very thing you sounded the alarm on. And to know that 80% of their content on their site they couldn’t verify wasn’t problematic. And [00:10:00] to have removed it all so quickly, knowing that content is everything to them is so, so, so telling.

Laila (10:11):
Yes, a hundred percent.

Fight The New Drug (10:13):
So after that beginning in early 2021, the Canadian House of Commons Ethics Committee launched their investigation into MindGeek for reportedly hosting videos of child sexual abuse, rape, sex trafficking, non-consensual non consensually distributed content. And that starts [00:10:30] with the hearing, hearing the testimony from Serena who was free featured in Christophe’s article, and you spent a lot of time talking with Mike Bowie, who you worked with on, on an investigation into PornHub and Mind Geek spent a lot of time with. What did it mean for you to f for them to finally be able to share their testimony?

Laila (10:52):
Yeah, no, that was a very important moment. One thing that we didn’t mention that also happened though, right after Nick Christophe’s article [00:11:00] was Visa, MasterCard and Discover said they were cutting ties with PornHub. And so that made like yes, waves around the world that, you know, they made this decision to cut off PornHub. And we, we realized it was kind of a half measure later, but at the mo at the time, we thought they just removed 80% of the entire website and they were just completely demonetized by the credit card companies. And so that was what we felt happened at that moment. [00:11:30] But then, yes, the Canadian and Parliamentary hearings started at the beginning of 2021, and that was such a important moment to get the truth about PornHub onto the public record, the public parliamentary record, and give numerous victims the opportunity to share their stories.

(11:49):
and so, and actually to get the executives of MindGeek on the public record for the first time, ’cause they had avoided, [00:12:00] you know, being public, they had hidden themselves from the public, they had hidden, you know, used fake photos online. And in some cases the VP of PornHub was using fake names to speak out in the media and fake personas and all of this. And then suddenly they’re subpoenaed to testify in front of Canadian parliament to the world recorded, right. And they have to now be questioned for what has happened. And that was a very [00:12:30] important moment, and they did not do very well.

Fight The New Drug (12:33):
One thing you do so well is detail who these executives actually are, what their roles look like, and how they hid behind some pretty significant PR efforts, hiring pretty large PR firms to try to make things look any better for them than they could. So to have them have to engage in these parliamentary hearings, engage in [00:13:00] explaining what’s going on. And to your point, no, they did not do very well. Tell, tell us some kind of highlights from those hearings that you think are noteworthy for anyone who maybe didn’t see them.

Laila (13:13):
I mean, one of them was, you know, Corey Iman, who was the VP of PornHub, who had been hiding his persona using fake names, Blake White and Corey Price. And, well, not for years, actually having to put his face out there and be named and admit [00:13:30] that he was using these fake personas for so long. That was a highlight, but also, you know, being able to see the way that the members of Parliament were not letting them off the hook, like they were actually grilling them for what they have done to victims and calling them out for crime. Like they, they do not, you know shy away [00:14:00] in that hearing for saying, you have committed crime, you have not reported child sexual abuse. Do you know that it is illegal in Canada? There is prison time for not reporting known instances of child sexual abuse material. And at the same time, you know, showing that they hadn’t done that, like they actually were able to call them out on unlawful behavior there in front of the world. I thought that was really critical. [00:14:30] And also just to give survivors the platform to tell their stories and put that on the record. I thought that was a very meaningful and important moment.

Fight The New Drug (14:39):
Can you actually tell our listeners how many cases were actually reported of child sexual abuse material on PornHub?

Laila (14:49):
According to the testimony of the leading child protection agencies in the Canada and the United States, they had made zero reports since their genesis. [00:15:00] So this is now we’re at 13 years after they were founded. And these agency heads, these are the places where this content would be reported if it’s reported, it’s reported here. And the heads of those a agencies is on the record, on the Parliament record under Oath testifying they had made zero reports. What that means is that they were hiding child sexual abuse material from [00:15:30] authorities that they knew about. And we even have confirmation of that from, you know, there’s one chapter in the book where I’m going down this rabbit hole of Reddit comments by a senior community manager, a senior manager at MindGeek, and in one of them, somebody on Reddit is saying, help. Like, I just found child sexual abuse, child pornography all over PornHub, what do I do?

(15:54):
And her response is, you don’t need to report it to the authorities, just send it to us and we’ll [00:16:00] take care of it. That was her response to him. Now we know that they weren’t reporting it, they were not reporting it to authorities. And this was also confirmed in depositions that were taken in legal discovery and child sex trafficking cases confirmed by MindGeek employees themselves. So this is a fact, like this is an on the record fact that they were not reporting. And what does that say? And to me, you know, it, it’s, it’s horrific [00:16:30] that they weren’t doing that. But when you kind of go deeper and you think about, this really breaks my heart so much, is that imagine how many kids could have been saved from those situations of abuse if all those years they had been reporting, like they should have been reporting that was required by law for them to be reporting how many kids would not have to have spent their life in situations of abuse if they had been doing that. And that has just so [00:17:00] unforgivable, like it’s not okay that that happened.

Fight The New Drug (17:04):
Yep. And to run a porn site and not have the most basic po policy parameters for something that legally you are required to do is report to not have that in place while running many porn sites actually does fairly clearly in indicate that they didn’t care that it was a conscious choice not to do it. Which is alarming. During [00:17:30] one of those hearings from the ethics committee, along with several of the victims who had had videos non consensually hosted on PornHub as well as other experts, you were actually able to share some survivor testimonies that had been sent to you as well as titles of videos on PornHub and suggested search terms on PornHub. What impact did your testimony in these hearings have on the committee’s understanding of the issue?

Laila (18:00):
[00:18:00] They were just lying left and right about things that were clearly, you know, based on identifiable and demonstrated and recorded facts not true . And they were just freely saying these things. I really felt like I want to have a chance to set the record straight on that and be able to refute some of those lies that they were telling. And so for me, that was why it was important to be able to [00:18:30] go on the record and say those things. And I definitely felt a, a moment of relief when one of the, after I kind of did my, I think you have seven minutes to kind of lay out your first statement, and then you get questions after that when one of the members said, well, you have demonstrated that what they said were lies, you know, in, in other words, that’s not the exact quote of what she said, but she basically said, like, what you have said has refuted what they said and, and proved [00:19:00] them to be lies. And to me, that was just, I felt so much relief in that moment. It was very important to me.

Fight The New Drug (19:07):
These hearings were streamed, so our team, this being an issue we are obviously focused on, watched these in real time and, and to see from our perspective, even the shift in their understanding of these issues based on your testimony and the testimony of other survivors, it was, it was so apparent and it was so needed. I mean, we also watched Mighty Executives [00:19:30] tell Lies while we were so frustrated to see this happening because there they were so easily to prove as lies. And so it was so helpful, I think that you were able to share what you did.

Laila (19:44):
It was, but I would also just say no matter, you know, what I was able to share, I just feel like the most important thing that was shared was the opportunity that they gave survivors to go on the public record. Because I feel like they were very impacted by the [00:20:00] testimony of Serena and all the others, you know, Vicki that went and testified and, and others that had the chance to anonymously share their stories. And I could just see they kept referencing over and over the way that they had heard directly. You know, they say, well, you’re saying that right? But we’ve heard directly from survivors that had very credible testimony that, that what you’re saying is not true. And so I think that was [00:20:30] such a powerful moment as well.

Fight The New Drug (20:32):
I agree. And the amount of courage it took those survivors as well to be so willing to share their experiences in the way that they did. It, it was, it did make a huge difference and it does matter so much and I think created a lot of safety for others to come forward anonymously or otherwise to be able to share their stories and seek justice as well. Can you talk a little bit about the lawsuit that Mike Bowie filed in [00:21:00] June of 2021 and maybe also who Mike Bowie is for? Anyone who’s, who’s unfamiliar but the lawsuit he filed on behalf of those survivors of, of trafficking and abuse?

Laila (21:10):
Yeah, so an important lawsuit that I highlight in this story, and just as a disclaimer, like there are other very important lawsuits that have been filed, you know, to date right now as it stands, I’m, you know, trying to keep track. It’s hard because there’s a lot being filed, but since 20 20, 26 [00:21:30] lawsuits have been filed on behalf of nearly 300 survivors, and those include multiple class actions on behalf of tens of thousands of child victims. And all of those attorneys are doing an amazing job for the clients that they represent. And so, you know, I, I was able to kinda highlight one particular litigation in this story, but you know, all of them are so important and so needed. And this particular litigation that’s highlighted in my book and the lead attorney [00:22:00] on that is a attorney from New York, whose name is Mike Bowie, and he has a history of very high stakes, very large corporate litigation on behalf of kind of powerful corporate actors.

(22:15):
and you know, he had actually li litigated the biggest hedge fund insider trading case in history against Stevie Cohen and SAC Capital. That was a very important case. And so that was kind of his background, and he was activated into this [00:22:30] issue by reading, you know, he’d heard about sex trafficking and he had a desire to be able to use his skills and his background affect this in some way. And so it was incredible when he was able to start engaging with these survivors and helping to represent them and their pursuit of justice. There was a case that was filed on behalf of 34 victims represented by Brown Renick, Mike Bowie and his partner. And [00:23:00] they, you know, importantly, they sued not only MindGeek and PornHub, but also the individual owners by name. They also sued Visa, which was a really important part of, of accountability.

(23:17):
So that was the litigation that was filed. Serena was the kind of the lead named plaintiff in that filing, but they’re still filing cases. Just last month there was 13 cases [00:23:30] filed by survivors, represented by Mike Bowie, who are now not only suing Porn head, MindGeek, the individual owners in Visa, but through a long process of discovery over the last couple of years, they figured out that there’s enough information to be able to rope in the hedge funds who funded MindGeek. So they’ve actually roped in Redwood Capital and Colbeck Capital for their participation in funding this sex trafficking venture. And [00:24:00] so that is now part of this ongoing litigation.

Fight The New Drug (24:04):
Yeah. And we talked a little bit about the work you’ve done with Justice Defense Fund in our last episode, but for anyone who maybe missed that or maybe is a survivor or someone looking to get this kind of support or possibly push pursue litigation, can you tell them where they can reach out for resources?

Laila (24:21):
Yeah, sure. You can go to justice defense fund.org and we have a find help tab there and form, and you can fill out your information there and [00:24:30] then you’ll be contacted by a trauma informed licensed advocate who then can speak with you and kind of help you along in that process.

Fight The New Drug (24:42):
Amazing. Thank you so much. Can you talk a little bit about the shift that happened in 2021 and how PornHub was making revenue?

Laila (24:51):
Yes. So they had always been monetizing their content with ads from the very beginning, you know, selling, you know, [00:25:00] millions of ads per day. Billions, actually 4.6 billion. But they were focused also on being able to monetize their content with those premium subscriptions and also the pay to download content. Now the credit card companies cut them off, apparently we didn’t know, but they went back two weeks later to Pornhub’s advertising arm called Traffic Junkie. And Traffic Junkie is how they use advertisements to place ads on all of [00:25:30] the content on the site. And so they began to, because they said, well, this is how we can monetize right now. ’cause we, we may not have the credit cards for premium and we may not have it for pay to download, but we have them for advertising. So they began to really focus their attention on how to beef up their advertising arm to make up for lost revenue. And that’s the shift that was made in 2021, where they began to focus more there and were making most of the revenue from advertising [00:26:00] at that time.

Fight The New Drug (26:01):
Can you tell us a little bit about the New Yorker article in the following year called The Fight to Hold PornHub accountable and kind of what happened surrounding the release of that article?

Laila (26:10):
Yeah, so after we had under understood, thanks to a, a MindGeek employee who came forward to say, Hey, you thought that the credit card companies cut off PornHub, but they didn’t. And so we became aware that that was an ongoing issue. At the same time, the New Yorker was [00:26:30] developing an investigation and was planning to release a really important article that they had named the Fight to Hold Porn Hub Accountable, which was kind of a summary of what had happened so far, but also unveiling new information with new sources from MindGeek and highlighting another survivor story. And so that article came out and that put another big spotlight on PornHub and important at the end of the article. The journalist mentioned the fact that the [00:27:00] credit card companies actually had gone back to PornHub, and I was so pleased that she was able to highlight that important point. But shortly after that the CEO and the COO were forced to resign and the details of why that happened, kind of the inside baseball behind the scenes of how that all happened as detailed in the book. But that, that happened. And so their resignation came after that and many of their hundreds of employees were fired at that time as well. From [00:27:30] that article.

Fight The New Drug (27:31):
At that point, you also published a piece in Newsweek titled Wire Visa and Visa and MasterCard still doing business with PornHub. Tell us a little bit about that experience for you.

Laila (27:43):
Yeah, so again, it was like kind of deja vu a little bit from the beginning of this fight. And, you know, we had come so far and we felt like we had made this amazing progress only to be let down by the news that the credit card company had gone back and just like, what can we do? How can [00:28:00] we address this now? And I felt it was important to do another op-ed to shine a light on what was happening with the credit card companies. And so I was able to do that. It wasn’t easy to do. It was a very, it was challenging to even get that published, but thankfully it ended up being able to be published and it was a call out to say, why are PornHub why are Visa and MasterCard still doing business with PornHub? and so that kind of just helped shine [00:28:30] a light. I was able to like, like send that to Bill Ackman, send that to, you know, the credit card companies themselves being like, Hey, we’re not gonna ignore this. We’re not gonna let you just go and continue this. Like, we’re gonna actually continue to call you out on this.

Fight The New Drug (28:46):
And important to note, because they are, they take a percentage of payments process, they were also knowingly profiting from these problematic things, which you also detail in the book. And I think that’s important for people to note. It wasn’t just [00:29:00] important for credit card companies to stop supporting PornHub to help PornHub stop the problematic things they were doing. The credit card companies were also needing to be held accountable for profiting from these same things.

Laila (29:14):
Yes, very important to all of this is to understand the role that the credit card companies do play in monetizing and benefiting from this illegal content. And they are able to even charge higher transaction rates on what [00:29:30] is very justifiably considered high risk with a company like MindGeek high risk transactions that they’re charging higher rates for. So they’re making even more money on those transactions than on other kinds of, of content. And they were benefiting. And that’s the basis for litigation as well, is it’s, it’s unlawful to knowingly benefit from a trafficking venture in the United States. And so they needed to be held accountable and do need to be held accountable [00:30:00] for actually profiting from the distribution of that illegal content and doing it knowingly, right, like with knowledge, like you are aware and are continuing to do that.

Fight The New Drug (30:14):
Absolutely. And some of what’s so great about this book is it really details the behind the scenes work that you did in, in those private meetings in full, giving full presentations to these credit card companies about exactly what was happening and exactly what they were knowingly [00:30:30] supporting. So they couldn’t claim they didn’t have knowledge because they were very well informed. And so all of these steps forward are so important and so needed, but there’s still so much to do. Tell us a little bit about kind of what’s next for you especially now that this book has been released and what listeners can do, how everyone can kind of support this work and this continued fight.

Laila (30:55):
Yeah, I mean, sometimes I feel like on a broken record, I’ve been talking about the same thing [00:31:00] since 2020 and you know, it’s kind of all I talk about is holding porn hub accountable, but we’re not done yet. This is about stopping real sexual crime, real child abuse, rape, sex trafficking image-based sexual abuse from being immortalized online, from being globally distributed and monetized and shattering the lives of countless victims around the world. And this company has to be held fully accountable to the [00:31:30] full extent of the law for what’s happened. Because if they’re allowed to kind of like, just say, sorry, we won’t do it anymore and go on their merry way, that’s not what justice looks like. Victims deserve justice. They need it for healing, for closure, right? When, when somebody does something so egregious, there needs to be serious consequences not only for victims to obtain the justice that they deserve, but because it’s an important deterrent for future abusers [00:32:00] because other companies can’t look at the situation and say, that’s just the cost of doing business.

(32:05):
We can handle that. No, there has to be criminal prosecution. We need to see restitution for victims. We really need to see PornHub shut down. I mean, you can go to backpage.com and it was seized by the DOJ because they had engaged in allowing their site and to be used for selling children for child sex trafficking. We need to see the same thing for PornHub. And then what we [00:32:30] need to see, and this is so important, is we need those policies put in place that are demand reliable third party aging consent verification for every single person and every single video on every single website that distributes user-generated porn. And when we do that, we will make a huge dent in preventing this from happening again on other websites that may wanna copy PornHub or its biggest [00:33:00] competitors that would operate in the same way.

(33:03):
And so I think all of those things together are so important and those are the next kind of targets in this fight, and we gotta just keep going and not let up until we see justice fully served. So I hope that this book for me, and my hope in this book is there’s so many people out there, we think everybody’s heard about this, you know, in my bubble, right? In my T Twitter bubble, you know, our work, we think, oh, everybody’s heard about this. It’s amazing to me [00:33:30] for people to say, this is the first time I’ve heard about this. I had no idea that this even happened. And so I hope that this reaches many more people, that they can get the full truth, that they can use me as an avatar, like use. That’s what I, I know, that had this idea of I want you to use me as an avatar to experience what I experienced.

(33:53):
So you can get the truth not only in your head, but you can get the truth in your heart, that you can feel [00:34:00] what it’s been like to meet the victims, to talk to the whistleblowers, to understand the depth of horrific crime that has been, you know, enabled by this website to be distributed across the world and all of that. So at the end of it, you’re as passionate about this as I am and as the survivors are who’ve endured this and that we can come together stronger than we’ve ever been, to put even more pressure on our government to [00:34:30] produce criminal prosecution on lawmakers to actually do something to stop this and, you know, for them to be held fully accountable. So that’s the, the hope for take down.

Fight The New Drug (34:43):
That’s so well said. And you said something in our last episode talking about this of just the true impact that one person can make. And I think one amazing thing about this book is we do see the impact you’ve made, but we also hear a very firsthand, as you’ve said about the impact that survivors [00:35:00] and those who’ve just liked a post on, on Twitter and the, the true impact and of the magnitude of that, of someone who took, you know, 30 seconds read about a petition and chose to sign it. There is a ripple effect for every single action that’s taken in this movement. And if ever you feel like you’re the only one who cares about this issue or you’re the only one who you know, has a problem with, with porn or PornHub, you know, please read this book [00:35:30] because I think this is such a concise way to understand the magnitude of the problem with this platform to understand that this is not just a, a moral argument, as you said.

(35:44):
this has to do with the fact that real people are being hurt on this platform, have been hurt on this platform, and very little accountability has, has occurred. And we can’t continue to let that happen. And as you said, we often think people know about this, [00:36:00] but I just had a conversation with someone yesterday who I was telling about this book that I was reading in preparation for this interview, and they said, I had no idea. I just assumed, you know, this was regulated ’cause it’s kind of a mainstream thing. I assumed it was regulated. I think so many people don’t know. So I would just encourage any of our listeners who’ve taken the time to listen to this interview, please consider reading this book. Laila, can you tell us where to find this book for anyone interested?

Laila (36:30):
[00:36:30] Books are being sold online, like major retailers. Also, you could go to take down book.com where we have a website where you can, you know, read more about it and whatnot. I wanna make sure you know that a hundred percent of author royalty proceeds are being donated to the Justice Defense Fund to help further the cause of justice. So that’s really important to me as well. And yeah, I am just so grateful. I I’m thankful that you are ending on the note of the power [00:37:00] of the movement, the power. You know, some people, and I I write about this also in the book, that at some points people try to say like, frame this as like the one woman’s battle against PornHub. And it’s like, no, that’s not what this is about. Like this is, if it was just a one woman angry on Twitter, I’m telling you none of this would’ve ever happened.

(37:21):
It’s only because all of the organizations that came together, the activists, the citizen activists, the social media activists, the lawyers [00:37:30] and the journalists and the whistleblowers, and most important of all the survivors who came forward, that’s what made all this possible. And I love it because we all came together from so many different backgrounds, and that I feel is such a kind of beautiful testament to the power of, of, of agreement and unity on something that’s so easy to unify on. It’s like nobody should be raped in trafficked for profit on the world’s largest porn site. So we can have pro porn people and anti-porn people and atheists and Christians [00:38:00] and everybody in between, right, right, and left coming together. And I think I, I wanna continue to see that happen and we need more of that in, in all of this. And yeah, so I hope people are inspired and encouraged and will get activated to just continue the amazing work that they’re already doing following your organization, and we’ll continue. So thanks.

Fight The New Drug (38:28):
Thank you. That’s, that’s so [00:38:30] well said. And also, it is worth noting your leadership in this fight is pivotal and we all so grateful, and I do hope people will take the time to read your book and really be able to experience this as you’ve experienced this. Because you can’t not care deeply about it once you have. So I think thank you for taking the time to write this out, to, to document everything along the way, knowing that documentation [00:39:00] would be important at some point, and to be able to have all of this evidence to share is so compelling and so important just for all of us to really understand and to know that this isn’t something any of us would ever be okay with in society yet it’s so normalized, so to know we can do something to combat it is so important. Laila, thank you so much. What an honor it is to get to talk to you. I, I could talk to you all day. I have so many questions and, and I’m so grateful for so [00:39:30] many things that you’ve done and for your leadership in this movement. And we’re excited to continue to support and follow the work that you do. Is there anything else you wanna cover?

Laila (39:40):
No, but thank you. It was so good to spend time with you and I appreciate you so much and yeah, thanks for this opportunity to share with your following about all this. And yeah, just appreciate it so much.

Fight The New Drug (39:54):
Thank you. And to any of our listeners, please check out Laila’s book. There’s [00:40:00] a link in the show notes, again, it is called Take Down. It is addressing the fight to shut down PornHub for a child abuse, rape and sex trafficking. Please have conversations about this with your friends, follow content about this on social media. Use your voice to engage in this movement, and together we really can powerfully hold these abusers accountable.

Promo (40:30):
[00:40:30] A 2021 nationally representative survey of US teens shows 84.4% of males and 57% of females ages 14 through 18 have viewed porn. As porn becomes increasingly normalized in the digital age, education on its well-documented harms becomes increasingly important. Fight The New Drug’s age appropriate and engaging live presentations highlight research from respected academic institutions [00:41:00] that demonstrate the significant impacts of porn consumption on individuals, relationships, and society. Request to Fight The New Drug live presentation for your school, business or community event by visiting ftnd.org/live. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/live. Hey, parents, navigating the digital world with your kids can be tough, but it doesn’t have to [00:41:30] be. Introducing the Raise app, your free guide to confident parenting in the digital age. Raise helps you manage screen time, tackle cyber bullying, and protect your kids from online predators with expert advice, engaging family challenges. A handy gold tracking feature and more. Raise is here to help support you every step of the way. Download the Raise app today at ftnd.org/raise and start building a safer digital future [00:42:00] for your family. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/raise.

Intro (42:09):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science, facts and personal [00:42:30] accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider Before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support Consider Before Consuming, you can make a one-time or recurring donation of any amount at ftNd.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. [00:43:00] We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots and consider before consuming.