Intro (00:00:08):
Today’s episode is with Chris McKenna, founder of Protect Young Eyes. Chris discusses his journey from an early exposure to pornography, to creating an organization focused on digital safety for children. He highlights his passion for helping parents, schools, and communities create safer digital environments through education and resources. Chris walks us through how to have discussions about pornography with children to reduce shame and secrecy and the importance of addressing these issues from a young age. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Natale (00:00:48):
Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here with us today. Chris, can you tell us a little bit about Protect Young Eyes, why you decided to start it, who you are?

Chris (00:00:58):
Yeah. Well, I’m a dad. I’ve got kids. I’m walking this journey in the tech world as a father of a college aged daughter, but then I have three middle school boys, so I am right in the thick things there. Protect young eyes. Wasn’t anything I ever intended to be working on Natalie. I’m supposed to be a partner at Ernst and Young right now. At least that’s what I thought I would be doing. How many of us have those forks in the road? But I was also, as a child, like a lot of men my age, I was exposed to pornography at a young age and really didn’t know what to do with it. It awakened a lot of curiosities inside of what is already a fairly compulsive personality that I have running after things. And that was a thing that my brain didn’t really know what to do with as a eight or 9-year-old boy.

(00:01:52):
And then here comes the internet and all of the accessibility and affordability, that AAA engine that I think fueled so many of us in the early two thousands as pornography then went to the internet. So my journey was one of walking through that issue, feeling the darkness of that issue. I then began working with teenagers and that role I took after I left my job at Ernst and Young, I was in business for 12 years, but then I started working with teens specifically junior high. So junior high was my age. I’m one of those weird humans that loves the junior high age. Some run to the hills when they see a group of middle schoolers, but maybe that has something to do with my maturity. Who knows? But I love the middle school age, and I was in that role leading a group of middle schoolers from 2009 to 2016, Natalie.

(00:02:51):
So if you think about the history of technology, I am now fresh out of a compulsive use of pornography myself. I had found clawed my way back to a life that had kicked that aside through a ton of effort and a ton of work. And then I watched us put that monster in their pockets. And to be honest, that terrified me. Once the internet became portable and we put that in the pockets of young people, that terrified me. And so I simply just started doing talks for parents that were attached to these kids. And then what started to happen were schools and other organizations started coming to me and saying, Hey, I hear you’re talking about this. No one’s talking about this. I mean back, you think about when fight the new drug started, nobody was talking about this issue or whenever it was. And that was about when then we began. And so here we are today, right? Speaking to as many like you guys, right? Speaking to as many students and parents and groups as possible, not just about this issue. We talk about social media and all kinds of digital spaces to help parents navigate.

Natale (00:03:59):
So a little more broadly, tell our listeners, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with protecting eyes, all of your work, what do you guys do?

Chris (00:04:09):
Sort of the tag is we work with families, schools, and churches to create safer digital spaces, whatever that organization looks like, that wants to bring us in and to help their people. So we equip at that very tactical one-on-one level, we do a lot of live talks, right? So hundreds of live presentations. We have an in-class curriculum that schools can use to teach digital wellness, whether it’s kindergartners or 12th graders, it’s K through 12. They can teach that. We now have a private community for parents who want one-on-one tech support if they want to come and be a part of a small group of like-minded parents who have decided to delay the hashtag. We often use Natalie is delays the Way, and parents who have decided to do that, I’m not sure how to do that, want help doing that. That can be a lonely road.

(00:04:57):
They can come be a part of that private community. And we just unpack the issues in easy to understand ways. If you were to go to our website, protect young eyes.com, you’d see well over a hundred app reviews, the device reviews, how to set them up, how to enable parental controls. We know that parental controls are only one part of the equation. That’s the technical side of things. But parents often just want to know, how does Snapchat work? How do I set up my child’s first Instagram account? And we want to show them step-by-step chat by chat, how to do those things at a very practical level.

Natale (00:05:32):
It’s amazing, and it’s such a gift because so many parents are trying to learn how to best navigate this digital world that we live in. So it’s great to have resources like protecting Eyes available. I want to talk more about all of the work that you do, but I want to go back and contextualize it a little bit more with kind of your own personal experience. So you mentioned you were exposed to pornography at a young age. How did you notice it impact your, and in retrospect, what would’ve been helpful for you at the time that you didn’t have?

Chris (00:06:04):
So the impacts on me were thank goodness, minimal compared to what they could have been if technology was more available. It was more of the stereotypical rundown to your friend’s house who has a VHS tape sort of thing. So I grew up in the eighties, graduated in the nineties. So for Gen X listeners, you can relate to that sort of go-to porn sort of childhood, which is radically different than the porn pursues us that we experience now with young people. It really wasn’t until college. It was one of these curiosities that just sort of sat dormant. I knew it was there and I knew I’d been exposed, and whenever I had the opportunity, Natalie, I would look voraciously at something. But I lived in a home that just didn’t have that. It was hard to get access to it. I was from a small town, you couldn’t get away with anything.

(00:07:00):
So then college comes around and then here is the internet, and now it can be consumed anytime, anywhere, and it’s that secrecy. So I think if I could point to one thing, it was believing the lie that I’m not hurting anybody, that pornography. It had never been explained to me that pornography always has victims on both sides of the screen. It never was explained to me that way. To me it was just sort of two dimensional content that was selfishly mine to consume and to use and to enjoy however I wanted. But that’s because there was no education. No one was talking. Nobody above me was sharing any wisdom about what this really was. And I think just as a culture, it even wasn’t something that we talked about that often. Anyway, so all of those things, those secrets, our secrets are often the things most toxic to us. And for me, that was certainly true.

Natale (00:08:07):
And can I ask, just for anyone listening who had a similar experience, especially the first time you have access to the internet, and at the time that the internet was newer, what was that process like for you once you were kind of skyrocketed into, skyrocketed into this environment where it was, as you mentioned earlier, the aaa, accessible, affordable, anonymous, available, however many as you want to add. What was that like to be able to quit that journey? What was that like for you?

Chris (00:08:37):
There was something inside of me. I mean, I knew that it was wrong to do. I never felt better afterwards. I think that’s a pretty common sentiment from people who have walked that very lonely path. And so that was not a pattern that I knew was good for me, was healthy for me. So it was obviously something that I didn’t want, but it’s that difference between wanting and liking that I couldn’t separate the two, both emotionally or neurologically. So that’s what it was. It was binge, binge, binge, binge, binge, and then nothing for months because I would feel horrible about it. And we got married, Andrea and I got married back in 1999, so now I’m carrying this right into marriage. And I knew it wasn’t a part of a healthy life-giving, respectful, mutual relationship that I wanted with her. And what she would tell you, Natalie, is when I finally let her know about this years into our marriage, we were probably at least six, seven years into our marriage before I actually said anything for her. The comment was, now I finally know what it is.

Natale (00:10:00):
Interesting.

Chris (00:10:02):
There was an unknown distance between us, an unnamed distance between us, just this chasm that in our relationship just wasn’t right. And now she finally knew what it was. Interesting. And so that began for both of us. I think a lot of healing and recovery. And that looked differently for both of us. For her, the main thing was just knowing that I had tools, relationships, accountability in my life. If those things were in place, that was good. She didn’t need to know. She didn’t need to get anything from my phone or software. She didn’t need any of that herself because that was too much of a burden. She just needed to know that it was out of the light and that I had put something in place, multiple things in place in order to keep that in my rear view. But that was a big moment for us as a couple to be so many years in and for her to finally go, that’s it. Now, of course in marriage, there’s always a lot more, but I mean, that was the thing that was keeping us from being as whole and as healthy as we could be. That was the biggest thing.

Natale (00:11:18):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that with us. I think that’s something that probably a lot of couples who experienced that go through. We’ve talked with a lot of people who mentioned they felt disconnected or they did feel that distance, but weren’t really always able to identify it. And so I think that’s something a lot of people will resonate with. And to know that, how is your marriage now?

Chris (00:11:42):
Well, it’s amazing learning. I always say to myself, if I could, we’re 25 years in this year, and gosh, if I could go back and teach that version of Chris a few things, one thing would, I mean other than obviously we’ve talked about the porn issue, but I would just tell myself to talk less. Listen dude, just listen. She doesn’t want to be fixed and she doesn’t need all your solutions right now. Just listen. That would be thing number one, B after one A. But parenthood, I tell you, parenthood, both marriage and parenthood are wonderful mirrors for us, our own shortcomings, our own things. We need to work on our own weaknesses, our own opportunities to be better versions of ourselves. I feel like both kids and a partner or a spouse are often reflecting back at us the exact things that we probably need to be working on the most. So yeah,

Natale (00:12:46):
Absolutely. And that’s such a nice segue because now the point of me asking that question was to let anyone know who’s maybe going through what you’ve been through in the past, that there is hope and that you can heal together in your relationship. And now you’re on this journey as parents, and this is a topic that you’re addressing with your children. How for anyone listening, even though you’re somewhat of an expert in this field, how do you address this with your own children? The topic of pornography?

Chris (00:13:16):
Yeah, so one of the phrases that I sometimes use when talking to parents is make porn the norm, right? When I talked earlier about the shame factor, Natalie, and everything in the dark controls us, however you want to define dark, right? Everything that we keep in the dark there. And so I’m just a big fan of putting as much as possible out so that it has less control over us. The things we place out in front of us in relationship with other people almost always have less control over whatever they’re trying to control. And so when I say the phrase, make porn the norm, it’s rob. That issue of all of the shame that thrives when it’s not a normal conversation, not normalizing it in the it’s okay, but normalizing it in the I’m okay to talk with. And I want my kids to know that and have wanted them to know that from a very, very young age.

(00:14:19):
I have a daughter who’s a freshman in college, and now as I said, the three teen, almost teen, I have 12, 14, 14. So I have a set of twins in there. But it’s a word that you can say in the kitchen while making pizza. That’s what I mean by making porn. The norm is robbing it of its shame power, robbing it, of its secrecy, which starts at a very young age. Can five-year-olds feel shame and secrecy? Absolutely. Right. And so when I ask parents, what’s the right age in my talks? What’s the right age to talk about pornography? I’ll have them all write down a number on their note guide, and then I’ll tell them to cross off whatever they wrote down and subtract two. And that’s probably the right number. The risk is never that people start too early. The risk is that we would start too late and we let Dr.

(00:15:12):
Google, Dr. TikTok and Dr. YouTube prime the conversation. And I want us to be the algorithm. I want us to be the algorithmic conversation that we say certain things so often related to all kinds of digital topics, not just pornography, but so often, Natalie that they’re rolling their eyes and finishing our sentences. That’s a parental algorithm. That’s what I want. And I’ll tell parents that if they are not rolling their eyes at the digital topics that you care about, then you haven’t said it enough. That to me is a sign of success, not a sign of I’m doing something wrong.

Natale (00:15:46):
I think taking away the power of shame is so important. And to some degree, I think we have to acknowledge that that starts with us. A lot of adults are more uncomfortable talking about the topic of pornography because we didn’t grow up with it being spoken about in a shame-free way or openly in the light. So I think acknowledging for adults, for parents, we have to educate ourselves. We have to break down whatever barriers we have around shame with this topic often before we can approach this and kind of break down that shame with young people. However, it is also possible to I think, do that at the same time. And I’m curious to know your perspective for anyone who’s hesitant to talk to their kids about pornography because it’s something they also struggle with or have struggled with, what advice would you give them on how to discuss this or if to discuss this?

Chris (00:16:36):
Well, yeah, there’s a lot there. So if you’re a parent who is currently struggling with pornography and it’s something that you don’t want to be struggling with, we have to do our own work. There’s so much risk involved as a parent in that situation where devices are left around where kids find the regret attached to a child discovering a parent’s use of pornography, I think we need to project out. I used to work in business, I worked in risk management, and one of the questions, Natalie, we would ask businesses around mitigating business risk was identify all of the what could go wrongs, the wg, what could go wrong. We had a whole list in every business and every process, and we’d list them out and then we’d identify ways to prevent that from happening or detect if it did. We had a list of both types of steps, tactics, controls, and I would ask a parent in that situation, who is in any sort of harmful to themselves or risky behavior as a parent project right now, what could go wrong could go wrong with your child that they discover?

(00:17:51):
And maybe that becomes a motivation to try something different, to have a little extra motivation to make a change today. So I would say that I would first point to organizations, you don’t have to have all the right words. I think sometimes when we say to parents, Hey, you need to talk to your kids about pornography. And one of the things that we say to protect young guys is 10 before 10, I want 10 conversations about pornography before age 10. And that causes a lot of fear and anxiety in Paris. They’re like, what are you talking about? My daughter’s nine now what do I do? I haven’t started, it’s not about strapping ’em into a chair and just saying the word 10 times and checking boxes, but I think a lot of parents would be surprised at what qualifies as a porn talk. Natalie, I know depending on when you listen to this, if you drop your kids off at school, let’s say you have a drop off line that you’re waiting and you turn the radio down and you simply turn to your son or daughter who’s strapped in captive audience, they can’t go anywhere.

(00:18:57):
And you just say to them, honey, I just want you to know, number one, I love you to pieces. Number two, there’s nothing you could do online or offline that could change that. And number three, if you brought anything to me in the real world or the digital world that wasn’t quite right, I will never freak out and that won’t change a thing. Turn up the radio and keep driving.

(00:19:22):
That’s a porn talk. You never said the word, but you’ve left a door open where they can land safely and softly with you. And I think sometimes we believe the lie that it has to be a PowerPoint and researched and they have to clap when we’re done. It has to be this elegant, extravagant, awesome thing. And none of that is true. In fact, I hope none of that is true when it comes to dripping in these little natural reminders that nothing they could look at makes them different and nothing they could look at would make the way you treat them different. Because in my experience working with young people for almost 20 years now, Natalie is when they stumble, when they stumble into something or something stumbles their way, and they’re in the middle of a situation that they know they shouldn’t be in when they’re discovered, when a parent or an adult, someone they trust enters into that and wants to help them, our young people need to know two things instantly. Number one, they need to know, am I going to be okay? And number two, they need to know, are you still okay with me?

(00:20:34):
And I think we can answer both of those questions sometimes without even saying a word. So for parents, it doesn’t have to be elegant, it doesn’t have to be a presentation, but I want you to practice. I want you to lock yourself in your bedroom. I want you to make a list of all the horrible things, including pornography that you hope your kids never run into online. And then I want you to say all of them out loud to yourself in the mirror. And after each one say, I’m not going to freak out. I’m not going to freak out. We have to practice when we parent from a position of emotion, we’re always a worst version of ourselves. And you get past the emotion by practicing it because then you’re in the thinking part of your brain instead of just that emotional part of your brain. So just some real practical things.

Natale (00:21:19):
Yeah, that’s great advice. And for a parent who’s maybe listening to this now because their child approached them and they weren’t prepared and they did freak out, or for someone who’s maybe tried to set that precedent with their child at some point and then something’s come up and they didn’t respond the way they wish they would’ve. For a lot of people, sometimes they can just shut down after that because they don’t know what to do. So what would your advice be to kind of reopen that door, maybe after responding in a way you didn’t intend?

Chris (00:21:47):
Yeah, right. Anger is tough and parental anger is real. And so for those who have, are in the position of, oh no, I did the thing that Chris just said not to do it just like any time that you feel like you’ve been hurt by someone who did something that you didn’t want them to do to you, what do you, you go and tell them, gosh, I screwed up. I’m so sorry that I did that. I said this and got angry in this way. And you know what? If your grandma, my mom, or your grandpa, my dad would’ve done that to me. I would’ve responded exactly how you did. I mean, I think that’s what we forget, that 14 year olds are no different today than they were back in the 1980s and the 1990s.

(00:22:37):
So I want us to be humble. I want us to try to put ourselves in that spot to go. Yeah, because Natalie, at the end of the day, some of the terminology that we have in the digital world just really grinds me because I think it sets us up in an us versus them sort of posture instead of an us with them. Even just the simple phrase, parental controls, you think about that’s what we label all these things that we put on devices. Sure. Imagine the 14-year-old version of yourself and your mom or dad comes to you and says, you know what, Natalie? I cannot wait to give you something. Do you know what it is? It’s called parental control. As a 14-year-old guy or girl, isn’t that exactly what you want in your life? Is something called parental control, the time when you’re trying to get parents out of your life?

(00:23:28):
No. So I mean, we have got to put ourselves a little bit in their position. And so sometimes we are asking them to do things that we simply could have never done ourselves, and we are asking ’em to respond in a way that we would’ve never responded ourselves. And so be understanding, be empathetic, go to them and apologize. Say, I got to start over. I have got to start over with this conversation on here. Here are my commitments to you. And just start fresh just in the same way you’d want a good friend of yours to do the same thing if you felt wrong to buy something that they did. And I think that that’s a great place to begin.

Natale (00:24:08):
I think that’s great advice. And also a good segue into the idea that just because perhaps it’s bad marketing that we’re calling these things parental controls, doesn’t mean that there’s not a place for them. And can you talk a little bit about what are some of the most common risks and dangers that children face online today, and how has the landscape changed over the years? There is a reason some of these things exist that didn’t exist before because the landscape is different. Even if youth are going to respond the same, the landscape is different. So what are some of those dangers? And then what can parents and adults be doing to best protect and defend children against these risks?

Chris (00:24:50):
The technologies that we give our children are more intelligent than ever, and we continue to expect amazing 14, 15, and 16 year olds to navigate technology that was never ever designed for them in the first place. So I know I just harped a little bit on the words parental controls, but they’re absolutely right, right tech, right kid, right time. And as I put in a recent social media post, don’t get mad at your kid when you give them an iPhone and they use an iPhone, like an iPhone. There are no amount of guardrails and boundaries and protections that you can put on that device to keep them away from all of those things. And so when we talk to parents about how to protect, we have layers of protection that we talk about, but we put them in two big buckets. There are relational controls and there are technical controls relationally.

(00:25:54):
The controls are some of the things conversationally and invitational that you and I have been talking about kind of all along, building something that we call digital trust, brick by brick, by remaining calm, remaining curious, and building trust with our kiddos. That’s the relational set of controls. There are the technical things that also need to be in place because to answer your question about the landscape, any app store, whether it’s Google Play or the Apple App store right now, you can go and download notifying apps, you can download deepfake apps, which can take a photo of anybody doing anything and turn them into their face doing anything else. And we’ve seen story after story about these things. So this is the landscape, a landscape that continues to a digital Pandora’s box, unleash technologies that are so radically advanced that humanity has lost all control of them and no way puts parameters around them.

(00:27:00):
As you and I are having this conversation right now, there’s an article out just right now about an open letter from AI company employees talking about the existential risk that this race to the most intelligent, intense version of artificial intelligence is causing everybody to cut corners and anything. It’s a race to the biggest, best, most profitable thing without any control. And I’m not a doomsayer. I’m not saying we’re running toward the matrix or anything, but let’s be careful. Let’s design before. And so I want parents to understand that every single time they put one of these devices, whether it’s a Kindle, whether it’s a Chromebook, whether it’s an Android tablet, a PlayStation, an Xbox, whatever it is, not one of them was designed for that amazing son or daughter that they’re handing it to. Therefore, if you’re going to give it to them, understand that it’s going to come with some risk and you better jump in with both feet and the entire body in that relational set of controls and in that technical side of controls by enabling what is possible and by telling them why. Because what kind of parent would you be if you threw them into the deep end of the pool or drop them off at a physical park where pornography was like posters everywhere. There were predators hanging out at the swings. We would never drop our child off at a park where there were a million TVs playing TikTok videos.

(00:28:37):
But that’s what we do when we give them an iPhone every single day, and we just think it’s okay. So I just keep putting those things in those two buckets and engaging with them if we’re going to give them the tech, that’s what comes with it as a parent or a caregiver.

Natale (00:28:51):
Yeah. Can you speak specifically for any parents who are maybe considering at whatever age they have determined is the right age? Can you detail some of the risks of specific social media platforms or specific apps or specific things that a lot of parents maybe don’t inherently know exist within those apps that are risks to young people?

Chris (00:29:14):
Sure. So social media is a lot more than just social media. That’s what makes it so complicated today is these mixed content digital spaces. It used to be a lot easier to go, well, that’s porn and not, we really don’t live in that space anymore. Where there have been different surveys and you have done some common sense, media has done some, but when Common Sense Media looked at about 1300 boys and girls ages 13 to 17, 44 of those intentionally searching for pornography or who had intentionally looked at it, and it was a large percentage of them, 38% of those 13 to 17 year olds did that via social media, TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, and Reddit is in that bucket too. I have a lot of opinions about Reddit as I know you as an organization do too. And so it’s not just pictures, it’s not just funny filters.

(00:30:15):
Every platform that allows UGC user generated content always has explicit content, always. It’s been that way since the beginning of the internet. And so parents need to realize that When it comes to the different platforms, I guess it depends on the child, and this is what I say to parents, the app that can quicker than any other app radically change the trajectory of a child is Snapchat because it tempts you into sending something instantly that ephemeral content that can just be, and that’s why whether it’s Sextortion and for those not familiar with that, it’s that exchange of content which then is weaponized against a child and convinces them to send money and all kinds of horrible things are happening because of that issue. I think Snapchat is a big contributor to that. Instagram has all the same features of both TikTok and of Snapchat. I don’t think parents realize that it has vanishing photos, it has short videos, and it also has a feed of permanent evergreen, well, not permanent, but evergreen content as they say that you’re always comparing yourself. So to me, that’s a little bit more of a constant sort of corrosive reminder that I’m not quite as cool as everybody else.

(00:31:42):
And for TikTok, there’s nothing on earth that’s addictive as the TikTok algorithm. I don’t know if you have an account and I do, and others, it knows you. And so to me, that is the one that parasol often underestimate that it is a constant drip of content that changes culture, that you can convince a whole wave of teams to participate in certain challenges and to do certain things. It is the barometer for teen culture because so many of them are watching just this very addictive video content and it pushes them down these rabbit holes. So that one’s under the radar. It’s almost like TikTok to me is sort of like the dishwasher that is leaking water behind it in a little drip that you don’t know is a problem until a year later, the tiles in your kitchen are now starting to float a little bit because it’s been dripping for a year. And now you realize you’ve had a problem for a year, and now you realize that your child’s brain has been shaped to constantly be entertained and can no longer focus because of TikTok. And now it’s how do you get that kid back?

Natale (00:32:53):
So for parents today, who in this world where technology’s not going anywhere, it’s a little different than when the internet wasn’t really a factor for you growing up, and then you went to college and there it was. Obviously, we can’t restrict young people entirely and then expect them to have a healthy way of engaging with the internet when they’re 18, right? There has to be kind a training wheel process or a driver’s ed before we give them their license. When parents ask for your advice on that, what do you tell them?

Chris (00:33:24):
We’re all about right tech, right kid, at the right time. There are certain ages and stages. For example, I don’t believe any junior high child is a better version of themselves emotionally or relationally because of the presence of social media in their life. I just don’t think it’s necessary. I want them to make that transition. And for those listening to this, depending on what part of the world that you’re in, I’m talking about ages like 11 to 14. I want those years as clear of algorithmic technology as possible, and I want them looking at each other as often as possible. I want their relational template, their social template, even their sexual template. I want their templates shaped in a natural analog version of the world and not be exposed to too much too soon. And as I talk to counselors and therapists, they refer to this concept of information ahead of schedule that when you feed young brains information ahead of schedule and they don’t know where to put it.

(00:34:34):
For example, I had a therapist who I just recently interviewed tell me that when he has been in counseling with a tween boy who has seen pornography, what he’ll say to this counselor is he’ll say, well, I don’t know. Were they wrestling? What were they doing? Why? Because he knew he was curious about it, but he didn’t really have a box to put it in his brain because it was ahead of schedule. So it’s creating all this confusion and chaos in him neurologically, and I just don’t think we need to be risking our children and their childhood by putting them in those places. So it’s a long-winded answer to your question, but it aligns with keep ’em out of social media until they’re driving. If you need to give ’em a smartphone, okay, but do it in steps. There’s no browser, there’s no social media.

(00:35:27):
Then maybe you give them a browser and then maybe you allow them to use social media, but only through a MacBook or a Chromebook where they can go to instagram.com and interact with things a little bit or tiktok.com and interact with things a little bit. You can watch all TikTok videos on YouTube. Anyway, we both know this. It’s following these steps so that they’re warming up to it. We don’t put our kids when they’re learning how to ride a bicycle in the top of the tallest hill in the neighborhood and push. We do all kinds of things, at least I didn’t. But we have grassy surfaces and knee pads and helmets and training wheels, and we do all kinds of things to prepare them for the two wheel experience. So there’s no such thing as too little screen time in the lives of our kids. And I want parents, caregivers to hear that everything that tells you differently is a lie. They will not be further behind. They will not get into a worse college. They will not get a worse job.

(00:36:31):
You can talk to anybody, either secular scientists, anybody, you can talk to any of them, and they will tell you that there is zero research that points to children being unadapted or unprepared for life. In fact, they’ll tell you the exact opposite because I was just at the World Economic Forum this past year with scientists and psychologists, and they tell me the most, well-adjusted teams that they know that come into their labs for research and study are those who had late acquisition to these algorithmic environments. So the marketing is doing its job on us. It is a billion dollar engine that is trying to convince all of us that it’s necessary. None of it is necessary.

Natale (00:37:21):
And I think it’s important to note, when fight the new Drug was first founded about 15 years ago, the reason we’re called Fight the New Drug is because it was a new idea. It was news to people that something that was not a substance you physically put into your body could be addictive or compulsive in the way that a drug was. And now that’s not something we have to convince really anyone of anymore, because every adult we know would say, I’m addicted to my phone, or I love TikTok. So many adults experience this kind of compulsion to these different apps or algorithms that are designed to kind of hook us on this constant overstimulation. And that’s exactly what pornography does as well. So if we know that it’s impacting there and it can impact in all of these other ways, I think great advice to not make the lives of young people even more difficult than they need to be.

Chris (00:38:15):
That’s right. And I guess I sometimes want to step back and ask caregivers a loving but very direct question, why do we feel the need to experiment on our children? John, he who is very popular in the news right now because of his book, the Anxious Generation asked, in one of his blogs, he writes, and one of his blogs on his substack, it was either him or Zach, his research assistant asked a really profound question that I talk about all the time now, because to me, it was a radical. It was this like, oh my gosh, sort of aha moment, right? When you look at a court of law when it comes to a criminal case, the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. Why? Because putting innocent people in prison for crime is bad. We don’t want to do that. So it’s beyond a reasonable doubt that you would convict to this person of a crime because the alternative, the risk going the other way is too great. But in civil cases where I wronged you and you take me to court in some way, civil cases is preponderance of the evidence. That’s the burden of proof. In other words, is it probably true that you ran into me or you stole my cat or whatever. I don’t know why I’m making things up, but is it probably true? That’s the preponderance of the evidence? If so, okay, pay up, make the wrong, right? Let’s move on.

(00:39:49):
I want us to see technology in the same way, and I feel like there are way too many people for different reasons that are waiting for beyond a reasonable doubt that it’s wrong. Instead, I’m saying, isn’t the preponderance of the evidence showing us that there’s something probably going on and why aren’t we waiting for beyond a reasonable doubt that it’s beneficial before dropping our amazing young people and ourselves into some of these technologies? I think we’ve got it backwards. And I know there’s a lot of complicated reasons why. I know all parenting and family situations are a little bit different. There’s stressors, there’s vulnerabilities. I understand those things, but there are many who I think have that reversed and they just need to be told they have it reversed so they can start to see it differently.

Natale (00:40:42):
Yeah, well said. It’s like the idea if you have a beautiful looking chocolate cake in front of you and that’s your favorite kind of cake, but it’s poisoned, are you going to eat it? Most people would say no, but we know there are potential harms of these things that are appealing, but we engage in them anyway often, which is an interesting quality of being human.

Chris (00:41:03):
It is very true.

Natale (00:41:05):
I know you mentioned it briefly, but ai, deep fakes and pornography and young people, do you get asked that by parents? It’s something we’re increasingly getting asked, and I would love to know what you would say about that.

Chris (00:41:19):
So related to the issue of deep fakes and our young people, we have written a post. I know you have a couple of two, but it’s the ultimate guide to DeepFakes, and there are 15 different steps that parents can take in their homes order to mitigate the risk of their child being involved in deep fake technology because at the end of the day, it is illegal content. I know that’s a word that I don’t want to just throw around flippantly, but child sexual abuse material, sometimes referred to in statute as child pornography. This is a version of that, and it’s just too accessible because the apps are available, the websites are available, and they’re not always blocked by some of the pornography or other explicit content filters that are out there because they’re popping up all of the time. And so one of the issues that parents will ask me about Natalie all the time is, well, should I have a private social media account?

(00:42:21):
Should I be sharing photos of my children at all? And the response that I give parents is, from this point forward, we should be sharing as few photos as possible of our children with as few people as possible. And yes, private account, and yes, emojis over faces, and yes, all of these things, I believe that schools need to have policies related to this kind of conduct. That’s some of the issue here is that when this happens at school and the photos aren’t real, and now they’re being shared how a lot of school policies don’t have anything that speaks to this kind of content or conduct, and they need to get up to speed on these kinds of things. And so that’s what I would say. It is a near and present danger and digital photos, and this is something I want our kids to be taught from a very young age, that digital photos are valuable assets, all of them.

(00:43:20):
So we ask for consent. Whenever I take a photo of my kids, I ask for their permission to post it. I always tell them who’s going to receive it and how it’s going to be used. Because digital photos have significance of other human beings, especially now more than ever. And I hope that by doing that someday when they run into a situation where a digital photo, if someone is being shared that shouldn’t, I’ll go, wait, that’s valuable. We need to stop that or do something about that. So some of the things that we discuss with parents on that topic, we’re just seeing it everywhere with high schools and young people who are making photos and then sharing them and bullying them. And there was a article that I just read just this week from the Wall Street Journal, from Julie Jargon, someone who we have worked with in the past, that even when the students know that the photos are fake, the person who’s depicted in the photo is the one who still bullied, is the one who still feels like the victim, not to mention the trauma they feel.

(00:44:22):
And again, that’s a word that gets thrown wrong a lot, but I truly believe that young people do feel a form of trauma when that happens. Them they’re victims from every angle, and it wasn’t anything that they did. They were walking down the hall and someone snapped a photo or someone screenshotted a perfectly innocent photo from their social media feed. And that is just a heartbreaking position for what is primarily young women, young girls to be a part of. They’re the ones that are almost always the victims of this because the AI is trained on females because it’s men consuming the content. So it’s not a good situation. And parents need to be aware. You need to be educated. You got to put this out in the light with your kiddos, have this conversation about DeepFakes and AI with your kids and say a lot of really awkward direct things way out in the open.

Natale (00:45:11):
Thank you for speaking to that. I think it’s something that’s so many parents barely know exists or what it is, and the technology is evolving so rapidly that it’s something that we have to address in real time or it will just move too quickly past us. So thank you.

Chris (00:45:30):
Alright.

Natale (00:45:31):
I’m so curious to know, because you work so much with parents and counselors and youth, like you shared a moment ago that anecdote of the young boy who had seen pornography and didn’t know where to put it. Do you have other anecdotes that you think listeners parents would find surprising or maybe even relate to that feel valuable to share?

Chris (00:45:49):
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s a good one thing that I do want to acknowledge because I do want to address the parent that maybe has a fear of talking about it too early and awakening some early curiosity that’s unnecessary in their child. I want to acknowledge that that’s a real fear, and I do want to be gentle with that. And I don’t want anybody as a result of listening to this conversation for it in your child best and you know what they are and aren’t ready for. I just want your ideas about the decisions you want your children making related to pornography to be about two years old before they have to make them. I want two years of conversations, two years of practice, two years of reminders before you think it might happen, because being a super normal stimulus, if we think a one time porn talk is going to do the trick, we’re wrong because it’ll be overpowered in that moment.

(00:47:05):
And what I want to say related to the, well, how I know if it’s too early, this is why we have both relational and technical controls in place. So what I say to all parents who are going to have this conversation, especially with one of their young children, is to be aware of what those curiosities can birth in a child. So I had a mom come to me and say, Chris, I’m worried that if I talk to them that they’re going to start going and looking for it. And so that’s why we have a router in place that because for young kids, none of them have smart devices. All of the devices that they use are connected to wifi. So ensure that all of those devices are being monitored so that if you notice some searches that are on that curious path, then you can press in.

(00:48:03):
You can lean in as a parent and address that curiosity with them. And that lets them know that you’re monitoring some of the devices. And it goes back to parents not freaking out, not getting mad, not being angry when the result of your conversation caused your child to be curious. That’s not your child’s fault, but then engaging them and having that. So that’s where the relational, having the conversation needs the offset and the additional support from the technical to ensure that one isn’t doing harm. The other one can help identify where you need to jump back in and answer their questions instead of them going to Google to answer some of the questions or whatever, YouTube. So that’s where both of those buckets can work together. So I wanted to put that fear or question. Yeah, it’s real. And I want Paris to be aware of the fact that your conversations could cause curiosity, and I want you to actually even say that to your kids that I am going to talk about some things that may cause you to have other questions, and I want you to bring those to me because I love you more than Google.

(00:49:18):
I love you more than the Chromebook. And say those things out loud, remember, put it in the light, and if your child still chooses to maybe go to some of those digital spaces, then you’ve got those technical things to help like a little flag say, Hey, hey, hey, mom or dad, caregiver, get back involved, and that’s what I want. So just something else there.

Natale (00:49:39):
I think that’s so important to note because so many parents are afraid they’ll spark this curiosity, but we have to acknowledge that curiosity about sex especially is natural and is normal. So whether the curiosity comes as a result of the conversation and it’s steered in a way that could be healthy and they know to bring those questions back to you, or the curiosity comes whenever it’s natural for it to come and they go to Google, we always tell parents, trust us, you want to be the one answering these questions about sex. You don’t want porn answering these questions about sex. I think you’re spot on with that.

Chris (00:50:13):
And don’t be afraid when your conversation causes your kid to have additional questions. Smile when they ask them like little things, press into their curiosity. Be like, oh, cool. And almost be proud that they’re exploring it with you. So answer it with a smile, keep it direct, keep it short, and then move on. And like a cloud, that idea just going to float right on by and now they’re off chasing something else, right? So it does often come back to us and how we approach these things. So just again, just practical things for us to keep in mind.

Natale (00:50:51):
I think sometimes there’s a fear for parents too that they’re going to be asked a question they don’t know the answer to or have the answer to. How do you answer those questions?

Chris (00:50:59):
Honey, I have no idea. That’s a great one. I got nothing. Should we ask the dog, what do you think? He and I, my dog’s laying here next. This is where that’s not an indictment on your parenting. That is a, whoa, what a great question. I got no clue. But what a great opportunity to build digital trust to go and look for the answer together and to say, all right, let’s go learn. We got something here. Let’s see. And all of that tone and posture and positivity is really our opportunity to make that. Okay, here I am at home. I intentionally have a couch in my office. I have the Chromebooks over there on a file cabinet in a rack. My son was in here looking up some guitar music. My 14-year-old, he’s a guitarist. He was laying in here with me right in the middle of my Zoom calls.

(00:51:58):
He popped up when this started. That idea that tech with dad, just tech around dad, me with them, that side by side, us doing technology together in these little micro ways is super, super important to me. Those are all a part of the porn conversation. And not just that, I mean, whether it’s gaming or my son is right now big into group texting, which is a little bit, it’s basically social media, but in text form, I think parents need to realize that, but all of those little micro moves around us and together and open and public and in the light, and I’ve got nothing to hide, and I can hand him my iPhone and he knows my six digit passcode and can type it in and use my phone because dad has not much to hide on this thing. Those are all little micro gestures that I think we undervalue.

(00:52:57):
But when added up, like a lot of drips, right? Water eventually hollows a stone. That’s an old sort of Roman proverb of some kind. A Roman poet said that or something. And I think the same is true for our parenting and what kind of digital culture do we want in our homes? It’s not by writing the Emancipation proclamation, it’s by tweeting little bits, little nuggets, little comments, little invitations in all the normal moments of the day that are 10 times a hundred times more effective for creating the types of connection that I think we want in the digital age with our kids.

Natale (00:53:41):
Yeah, that’s such a good reminder because we’ve just spent all of this time talking about the risks of technology and the dangers of technology, but it can also be an amazing tool when engaged with properly. Do you want to expound on that at all anymore?

Chris (00:53:56):
Oh, I think in its rightful place, absolutely connecting. I want to keep technology in a spot where it augments what I already have as good in the real world. For example, I already have a great relationship with my mom, or my kids love staying in touch with their grandma, or I want to keep in touch with my siblings, or I’m doing research on a deck that I’m building here. When it can augment things that are in the physical world that are already good and established, that are good for us, specifically relationships, okay, that’s good. But when it starts to replace supplement, become a surrogate for those things, it’s not designed for that. It can never satisfy us in the same way. And that’s where the lie of pornography is, that it is sex or that it is a adequate set replacement for what is good and real and supposed to be amazing between two consenting individuals, and it just never satisfies in the same way.

(00:55:11):
It always leaves you a worse version of yourself, and we feel that for those of us who have walked that path. So let’s keep it in its rightful spot. A real helpful thing for people is just to do a simple time study in a week. Keep track of when you use your phone, how you use it, what you look at, and just track it for a week and ask yourself, are these all the things that I would want my 14-year-old doing with their device? And are we modeling the right ways that we want our kiddos, our young people to be using devices? So yeah, it can be good for keeping in touch. It can be good for doing research, but then put it down and go talk to people, right? It’s a thing we visit periodically to support real life, never to replace real life. That’s the way I want to keep it.

Natale (00:56:07):
Yeah. That’s beautifully said. And because you mentioned Pornography’s similarities here, for anyone who’s struggling with pornography currently, what advice would you give them?

Chris (00:56:18):
Oh, gosh. I would just say, tell me more, right? Tell me. I am not afraid of your story. I am not going to run away. I would want to just let that person talk about their journey and where they are, and gosh, I’ve been there. I’ve been there the day after where you just never want to do it again. You promise you’re never going to do it again, and you’re going to do, and everybody’s experience with that is a little bit different. I would tell them, and that no matter how many times that little voice in your head has told you that it’s not possible, there are millions of us who would look at you and smile at you and kind of nod their heads with you and say, it is. It is when our issues, when our heartache like this can be turned around to help and support others, that’s a beautiful thing.

(00:57:32):
And so there are wonderful days ahead that your heartache can be turned into help. Your ways that you’ve been harmed and hurt can be such a help to others. I’ve started to believe more and more because there are a lot more organizations than ever that talk about the issue of pornography, that unless you’ve walked it, I don’t know that you really can understand the spot that someone who’s struggling is in. And so I enjoyed having conversations with people who are struggling. I’m not afraid of those. I didn’t answer your question directly, but those are just some words of support and affirmation. You can look at me and say, he did. In fact, I’ll drop. And this is where stories are so powerful, which is why consider before consume this podcast here is so powerful. So recently, I had a mom in our community contact us, contact me through our website, and she wanted to have a conversation because she had a child who she had discovered was struggling with a device that she didn’t know was unfiltered in the house for two years when it came to pornography, but mom kind of knew there was something going on because her child was just not happy, kind of a different version of their selves.

(00:59:02):
As we all know, porn kind of makes us a worse version of ourselves and Mama’s heart, if I’ve learned something, Natalie, it’s never doubt of Mama’s Gut. And so what she did is some of the people listening or watching this might know that I was in the documentary childhood 2.0, and in that where I was exposed as a child and how I recovered from that, she shared this story that with her son, she said, Mr. McKenna, he was in the documentary, he shared how he was exposed to pornography as a young boy struggled, but now is helping others, and I just want you to know that it’s okay if you’re struggling. There’s a way out of this. Two days later, two days later, her son pulled her aside and said, mom, I’m Mr. McKenna, and shared that that’s what had happened to him, that he had been exposed at a young age and as a young boy, and he didn’t know what to do. It just really impressed upon me the power, because it’s not easy sharing about these things that are shameful, but for everybody, your story has power. Whatever has happened to you, your story has power and could be such a powerful tool to pull somebody else out of the pit. So that’s my invitation to anybody listening who might be in that spot.

Natale (01:00:36):
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that and such a beautiful reminder. It’s why we all do this work. It’s why, going back to what you said at the beginning, nothing can thrive in the dark. And so breaking down that shame, so many people feel so alone with these issues so frequently and just to know they’re not the only ones who have struggled and there is hope and there are resources that can help. So for anyone struggling, if you need resources, you can visit our site. You can visit Chris’s site depending on what resources you’re looking for. And actually, Chris, can you tell our listeners where to go to find any of your resources?

Chris (01:01:11):
Yeah, protect Young eyes.com is our website. We share quite a bit of good, valuable insights on social media too, primarily on Instagram like you do at Fight the New Drug and have loved and supported you guys for years and recommend you to parents all of the time. But yeah, just protect young eyes into any search anywhere and you’ll bump into us.

Natale (01:01:38):
Chris, thank you so much for your time here. For any of our listeners, please go check out the [email protected] and don’t hesitate to reach out if you have questions. We’re all here to help you, to provide resources and to help prepare us all to navigate this world. We’re in this digital landscape, so thank you so much.

Chris (01:01:59):
My pleasure. Take care.

Promo (01:02:06):
It’s July, which means it’s time for our Stop the Demand campaign where we raise awareness to help stop the demand for pornography and sexual exploitation. You can help raise awareness during the Stop the Demand this year by repping the movement in one of our starting tees. Enjoy savings up to 40% across our entire store. For a limited time, this is your opportunity to stock up on everything you need to support the cause and spread our message, including new items released just this month. It’s the perfect time to stock up on your favorite fighter gear. Plus, when you shop 100% of the proceeds from your purchase, support our mission to educate individuals on the harms of pornography and sexual exploitation. Get your gear before it’s gone. Shop the Stop the Demand Sale at ftnd.org/shop. That’s F-T-N-D.O.R.G/shop.

(01:02:57):
This podcast is made possible by Fighter Club. If you’re looking for a way to become a more active part of this movement, consider joining Fighter Club today. For as little as 10 bucks a month, you can create a real impact by supporting our efforts to educate and raise awareness on the harms of porn. Plus, by joining, you can get Insider info, 30% off all Fight the new drugs conversation. Starting Gear access to our Secret Store and an Exclusive Fighter Club kit sent to you when you sign up. Join Fighter Club today at ftd.org/join fc. That’s ftd.org/join fc. See you in the club.

Outro (01:03:39):
Thanks for joining us in this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug as a non-religious and non legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts and personal accounts. Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving review. Consider before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support Consider Before Consuming, you can make a one-time or recurring donation of any amount at ftnd.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots and consider before consuming.