Introduction (00:05):
Today’s episode is with Madi. When Madi first discovered pornography through social media at the age of 13, she immediately felt shame because it wasn’t something that she believed other girls struggled with. It wasn’t until she opened up to a trusted adult that she realized she wasn’t alone and could finally break free from her pattern of unwanted porn consumption. In this episode, Madi shares about how shame kept her feeling isolated, [00:00:30] how she now utilizes her platform to help other women know they’re not alone in their struggles, and the importance of parents keeping an open line of communication and connection with their children. With that, let’s jump into the conversation. We hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Fight The New Drug (00:54):
Well, Madi, thank you so much for joining us in the studio today. We’re so happy to have you here.

Madi (01:00):
[00:01:00] Thanks for having me.

Fight The New Drug (01:00):
Of course. So before we kind of dive into your story and why you’re here with Bethe New Drug on our podcast, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what life was growing up for you, just to kind of contextualize this conversation about

Madi (01:16):
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. My name is Madi. I’m 19 years old and I love being outside all things outside hiking. I love weightlifting and I love all things music, [00:01:30] like collecting records, playing guitar and electric guitar and singing, just all the good stuff. Awesome.

Fight The New Drug (01:36):
Who are some of your favorite musical influences?

Madi (01:40):
Okay, top one, I got to say Pink Floyd.

Fight The New Drug (01:43):
Nice. Okay. We love to hear it.

Madi (01:46):
Yes, love Pink Floyd. Probably also Led Zeppelin.

Fight The New Drug (01:50):
Nice, awesome

Madi (01:51):
Those are my jams.

Fight The New Drug (01:52):
Very cool. Are you a vinyl?

Madi (01:55):
Yes,

Fight The New Drug (01:55):
A vinyl listener. Collector.

Madi (01:57):
Okay. Yes. Love vinyl.

Fight The New Drug (01:59):
Very cool. [00:02:00] I love that. Well, we’re here to talk a little bit today about your personal story and your perspective that you can share on the harms of pornography. So to kind of dive right in, do you want to tell us a little bit about your experiences?

Madi (02:15):
Yeah, for sure. So I first found pornography when I was 13 and when I first found it, it was pretty, there was a lot of mixed feelings that I have. I grew up in a religious household, and so I [00:02:30] knew that that was against my personal belief system, and I felt kind of excitement and kind of a little bit nervous, like, oh my gosh, no one can ever find this. But the overwhelming feeling that I had was just shame. And that kind of kept me in this cycle with pornography for a long, long time, and I felt like I had kind of an extra layer of shame added because I was experiencing that as a woman, and I had always just kind of heard that, [00:03:00] oh, that’s a guy’s problem, boys will be boys, everything like that. And had never heard a women’s perspective. I remember I knew that there was no one I was going to turn to talk about this.

(03:13):
I was not going to ask my parents, I was not going to talk to my friends. What would they think of me? Right, sure. So obviously I turned to the all-knowing internet, and I basically just Googled, is it okay for women to view pornography or something [00:03:30] like that, or girls to view pornography? And of course, the all-knowing internet said, yeah, that’s just fine of right. And it was hard because I knew deep down, this doesn’t make me feel good about myself. It was a very temporary solution to some other problems that I was dealing with. And so yeah, after going that, I obviously knew that my personal beliefs didn’t align with that, but it was hard to hear that and reconcile [00:04:00] that.

Fight The New Drug (04:00):
Yeah, and I mean, you just said so many things that are key. We talk to a lot of women who have had a struggle with pornography, and that is one kind of universal thing that we hear is the added shame of being a woman experiencing this because it’s really normalized for men to experience a pornography habit in our society, but not as much for women. So there’s kind of that added layer. And also you were how old when you first

Madi (04:25):
13.

Fight The New Drug (04:26):
13 years old. And so this started a cycle [00:04:30] for how long?

Madi (04:31):
Probably four or five years.

Fight The New Drug (04:36):
Four or five years, yeah. And you mentioned you stayed in the cycle because it was kind of temporarily you were seeking out pornography as a way to cope with maybe some other things. Can you tell us a little bit about?

Madi (04:50):
Yeah. So the things that I was trying to cope with definitely changed over the years. I think at 13 I didn’t have anything [00:05:00] weirdly off about me or anything. I was a total normal 13 year old girl, but I struggled with some pretty normal 13 year old girl things being self-esteem issues, body image issues, and just in middle school and everything, you’re trying to figure out who you are. But when you have that added, when pornography is added to the mix, and it’s like this, I mean, I think fight the new drug calls it this super normal stimulus, and you have that added into your mix of just life, [00:05:30] it makes things really complicated. So pornography at that time was trying to act as kind of a solution to that problem that I had later on, the problems rather than being self-esteem or body image issues, they turned into things like stress from high school or problems with dating or things like that that I just needed to escape. Sometimes it was even just boredom and just having unstructured time, and then I would turn pornography to try to fix that, even [00:06:00] though I knew it would never actually fix it. It was just a temporary fix.

Fight The New Drug (06:05):
And by temporary, you mean in the moment that short-term solution, but maybe it was kind of perpetuating some of those?

Madi (06:13):
Yeah, totally. And it was definitely more harmful in the long run because it was like that. It’s just a cycle of shame, and so you feel bad maybe about yourself, about some aspect of your life. You view pornography and then you feel worse, and then it just keeps [00:06:30] going further down and down and down.

Fight The New Drug (06:32):
Yeah. Going back when you were first exposed to pornography, do you remember your reaction to it? Did you know what it was when you saw it?

Madi (06:42):
Yeah, it was kind of like a slow burn because the initial exposure to pornography was on social media. I remember that. And I knew that that was sex because I had had the talk, but it was a [00:07:00] one-time talk and it was just kind of general overview. And then I saw that and I was like, oh my gosh, what is this? And then it just further led into actively seeking it out because I think the general initial feeling was just curiosity, of course, what is going on here? And obviously we’re all human and you have those natural responses. And so I thought that those natural responses that I was having made me some gross and dirty 13 year old girl, [00:07:30] are you kidding me? I am not supposed to be feeling these things. And again, just ties into shame.

Fight The New Drug (07:36):
So that shame was kind of perpetuated. And then how did you combat that shame or eventually start to overcome this challenge with pornography?

Madi (07:46):
Yeah, I think there were two main things for me. One was mindfulness, which sounds kind of weird when we’re talking about, no, it’s great solving pornography, but mindfulness meaning when I [00:08:00] would feel the urge to view pornography, taking a second and asking Why am I feeling this urge? What emotion am I trying to avoid? What was I doing two hours ago, five minutes ago? When was the last time I talked to someone that I love? And so just seeing what factors played into actually my unwanted pornography use was really helpful in actually solving that problem. And then the second thing is connection, [00:08:30] I think. And just starting to talk to people because I think mindfulness got me only so far, but it wasn’t until I started talking to people and sharing my experience and hearing other people’s experience and realizing, oh my gosh, we were all just going through the same thing and no one talked about it. That was really impactful.

Fight The New Drug (08:50):
And I think part of the reason we’re so glad you’re here today is because we can share these stories, the more we can help break down those barriers for other people as [00:09:00] well. But I’m particularly interested in how you kind of overcame this shame cycle, because I think it’s something that a lot of people, that is the reason that they use pornography to cope with stress or boredom or any of the things you’ve listed. And then shame is really the cycle that keeps so many people stuck. And so was there a particular moment for you that you said, okay, today’s the day that [00:09:30] I’m going to make a change?

Madi (09:34):
So when I look at this shame cycle, I kind of look at it as three steps. So one is I would feel out of touch with some certain part of my identity, and then two, I would view pornography to cope with that. And then three, I would feel shame and I need to isolate and then feel out of touch with your identity. And it just repeats and repeats. So I think for years I looked at those three steps and I looked at the second step viewing [00:10:00] pornography to cope. And I said, okay, if I can just take that out, then I’ll have it solved. And that led to a lot of willpower and a lot of people call it white knuckling and just trying to force your way out of it. And it was really hard because then I would fall back into it and I would think that there’s something wrong with me that works in every other aspect of my life.

(10:23):
If I just want to get better at something, I’m going to work harder at it. And so the fact that this wasn’t working, I was like, [00:10:30] oh my gosh, there must just be something wrong with me. And again, that just ties back to the first step of identity. And so it wasn’t until I started looking at the first step of feeling out of touch with my identity that things actually started to change. I connected with just this trusted adult in my life, and I kind of told him what was going on, and I was like, what do I do? As soon as I had told him through a lot of tears of what had been going on, he just [00:11:00] assured me of a couple things. He said that I was not a bad person and that I was still just as loved and I was still just as valued. And hearing those things was so cool for me because it was so much of what was being said, but it was also so much of what was not being said. He didn’t tell me, oh my gosh, that’s really gross. Nothing like that. He just told me who I was and reminded me who I was. And as simple as that sounds, that really was so impactful for me.

Fight The New Drug (11:30):
[00:11:30] And I think it’s so important because if you had known that as a 13 year old maybe, or been able to talk with a trusted adult sooner, do you think that would’ve changed what your journey looked like?

Madi (11:42):
Yeah, I think so. And that’s also the crazy thing is sometimes I’ll have parents ask me, well, why isn’t my kid talking to me about this and whatever? And the thing was, my parents, I knew for a fact that if I came to them, they would’ve received it so well. They have so much love for me. I [00:12:00] know they would’ve been completely supportive when I eventually did tell them they were great about it. But that I think it’s important for parents to understand that’s not a problem with them or the way they’re parenting. It was just a matter of my personal shame and the guilt I felt around it that I didn’t tell them. And so yeah, I think if I were able to connect with someone earlier, it would’ve led me down a different path. But I’m also really grateful for the path that it led me down today. [00:12:30] I

Fight The New Drug (12:30):
Think that’s such a good point. You make so many parents feel like, well, in a lot of cases, parents don’t make themselves approachable or safe to talk to about this. So that is something that we want to encourage parents to do. But even in the cases where young people know their parents will be receptive, there is still just so much stigma and so much shame that it just makes it difficult to reach out sometimes. So is there anything that you feel like any other trusted adult could have done or [00:13:00] said to you sooner to make you feel more comfortable to open up to them that someone listening could maybe say, what could I do that would make my child approach me? Yeah,

Madi (13:12):
I think honestly

(13:16):
Just opening up that conversation and opening it up in a way that’s knowing that it’s not a matter of if, but when your children see pornography, and it’s just like, when was the last time you encountered [00:13:30] pornography and making it super casual and stuff like that, I think would’ve been really helpful for me. I don’t know if I would’ve opened up on the first couple of times that they asked me, but just knowing that that’s an open line of communication would’ve been really helpful. I also think, and I don’t really have a solution for this one, but one of the more harmful things was even my trusted adult that I ended up opening up to, a lot of times him and other just adults in my life would say, [00:14:00] oh my gosh, you’re so awesome. You’re so perfect. And stuff like that. And then of course that’s meant to me as a compliment. Of course, they didn’t have any bad intent with that, but hearing that sometimes internally I’m like, well, if only they knew. Right? If only they knew. And so maybe saying things like that, but also being like, you were great exactly as you are. Whatever you’re struggling with, there’s just so much love to go around regardless of what you’re struggling with. I think knowing that would’ve been [00:14:30] awesome.

Fight The New Drug (14:30):
Yeah, that’s really good advice. So two things. One, to have this be an ongoing conversation as opposed to kind of one time you have the talk, and that’s what a lot of parents do. That’s what a lot of our parents were raised in an environment where if they even had a talk, it was kind of a significant thing, but many of them didn’t even, so it’s kind of like we often hear, yeah, it was just a one-time conversation that was never to be spoken about again. So maybe just having that regular ongoing conversation [00:15:00] and then also leaving some room for mistakes or not being afraid to disappoint someone by having them having an expectation of you.

Madi (15:11):
Totally. I think that’s really, yeah, and even to add onto that, just embracing mistakes, not even pornography wise, but just in general. And seeing failure is an opportunity for growth in general, I think is awesome. Also, I just want to caveat all of this by saying I’m giving parenting advice and I’m not a parent, so…

Fight The New Drug (15:28):
That’s okay. I’m not a parent either, [00:15:30] but we talk with a lot of parents, especially on these issues, and I think having been a young person who experienced this, you do have a unique lens that could help some parents as well to know how to approach this. You mentioned that you were first exposed to pornography on social media, and can you tell us a little bit about what the environment is on social media for you currently, what you’re seeing among your friends? And we often get asked by parents or by young [00:16:00] people the dangers of social media and pornography. Can you just talk a little bit about that? Yeah.

Madi (16:05):
I think regardless of what your interests are, regardless of what you’re seeing on your for you page or anything, pornography is just there. And I think understanding that, again, it’s just not an if, but when I remember seeing those things on my social media feed and being like, well, they have algorithms and that’s targeted to me, so therefore there must be something wrong with [00:16:30] me, or something like that. But yeah, I just think understanding that it is so prevalent. Kids are seeing if they’re on social media or have any internet access, there is almost no way that they are not seeing pornography at least once a week, once a day. It is so prevalent and it’s not, A lot of it is unintentional.

Fight The New Drug (16:53):
And I think that’s mean such a good reminder. It’s not if it’s when, even in scenarios where there [00:17:00] are filters set up or any safety measures to protect young kids, especially little kids are good, but did you have filters on your devices? Were your parents aware of how accessible pornography was on social media at the time you were exposed?

Madi (17:18):
I think they were fairly aware as far as if I had filters or not. I think I did, but that’s kind of blurry. I know that I put my phone in my parents’ room at night and [00:17:30] looking back, that was really helpful because a lot of times when I was most susceptible to it was at night, you’re alone, it’s dark, everything like that, and you’re isolated. But as far as filters, I think that’s what I remember from my parents. But looking back, I’m thankful for them than resentful about them.

Fight The New Drug (17:52):
But regardless, to your point, kids are seeing it weekly even on different social media platforms, and it is [00:18:00] something to be aware of.

Madi (18:03):
Can I add a point?

Fight The New Drug (18:04):
Yes, please.

Madi (18:04):
And I think a lot of times for parents when approaching this issue of pornography, it’s a really scary thing and it is a really scary thing. We have to figure this whole new thing out now. And I think just for parents understanding that both the parents and the kids are still figuring out. And so approaching it, you and your kid versus this problem, not you versus your kid, is really helpful. [00:18:30] And I also think focusing on, oh my gosh, what filters are the best? I think that your energy is better spent building a good enough relationship with your kid that when they do see it, they feel comfortable enough to talk to you about it. Again, so much easier said than done.

Fight The New Drug (18:48):
Sure, but great advice. I mean, that’s any kind of tool that can help with monitoring or filtration or boundaries. Even putting your phone in your parents’ room at night or whatever. That is all are great [00:19:00] tips. But I think you’re kind of going back to what we always say, which is it’s not if it’s when. And that ongoing conversation, making sure that there is a trusted adult who kids will come to instead of just Googling things is kind of always the encouragement. So it’s good a reinforcement of that, I think. And just to note, I really liked that you said you figuring things out with your kids as opposed to you being against each other. You’re on the same team [00:19:30] against the internet essentially. And I think that’s a really helpful perspective as well. This is going back a little bit too. You mentioned you had some self-esteem and some body image things. We know that research shows that pornography, especially for women consuming, can negatively affect those things, but also can affect mental health. Can you talk a little bit about when you were kind of in the depths of this challenge and also already struggling with those things, the influence pornography had?

Madi (19:58):
Yeah. [00:20:00] A lot of times when I would view pornography the most or the most frequently was on days when I had a ton of unstructured time and it would usually follow scrolling on social media for a while. And then that scrolling wasn’t enough, I guess, for my brain. And then I turned to pornography. I remember there being days where I don’t know if I really made the link in my brain that it was pornography that was doing this to my brain, but I remember there were days [00:20:30] when I was so just unmotivated to do anything. And it was the things that hanging out with my family, being with my friends, the things that are usually really fun and being outside, but just nothing really seemed to excite me anymore. And then as soon as I started solving those underlying issues and therefore solving the pornography use, life got so much more exciting. And those things actually were fun to me. And I think, I’m not [00:21:00] a neuroscientist scientist or anything, but I’ve just heard of your dopamine baseline and it peaks with the pornography and then it goes back down even lower and just keeps getting lower and lower and lower. And so looking back, that kind of makes sense of why those activities weren’t really that fun to me anymore.

Fight The New Drug (21:21):
Yeah, why your mental health declined a bit and the things that would typically bring you joy. You didn’t feel that in those things. [00:21:30] I mean, research shows that, and a lot of personal experiences from individuals who’ve struggled with pornography kind of validate that as well. So I think that’s helpful for anyone maybe listening who is struggling with pornography and who’s experiencing that cycle themselves, to know that there’s hope on the other side of things, and that as many people who are overcoming a challenge with pornography will often talk about replacing the habit with something else and how that can kind of build healthy habits again. Is that something that you found [00:22:00] if you replaced the habit with something else over time that helped?

Madi (22:05):
Yeah, and I had to figure out how to, replacing the habit was super helpful with me, but I had to figure out how to do that the right way. Because a lot of times it was replacing it to just avoid it in the moment and completely suppress it, and then the pornography would just come back up again. But figuring out how to, it’s a hard skill to learn, [00:22:30] but figuring out how to maybe just go on a walk or go hang out with your family and still just allow that, I guess, urge to be pornography to be there, and then eventually it passes. And so figuring that out, that was one of the most crucial things.

Fight The New Drug (22:47):
Being able to practice experiencing that, but not having to give into it and still being okay after.

Madi (22:53):
Totally.

Fight The New Drug (22:54):
Yeah. That’s really helpful to hear year. So you mentioned a little [00:23:00] bit earlier that being a woman who was struggling with this and not having a lot of other resources for you, you experienced extra shame. Is there anything that you would tell women or young girls who maybe are experiencing this who might be listening that you wish someone had said to you when you were younger?

Madi (23:18):
Yeah, there is a lot of things.

Fight The New Drug (23:19):
Let’s hear it.

Madi (23:21):
I would probably just first off tell them that they are not alone. You’re not the only person in the world struggling with this. There’s [00:23:30] nothing wrong with you for struggling with this. And a lot of times I remember I would sometimes hear these things just said in a general sense like, oh, you’re loved, you’re whatever. And I would hear those things and I’m like, okay, cool. For everyone else, not me, right, sure. But just understanding that yes, every single individual you have worth. And it’s not, a lot of times pornography tries to take away from that and boil your worth down to just objectively [00:24:00] your body and you have so much more worth than that. And just to step out of isolation and connect with someone. And I would encourage anyone who is listening to this to take that first leap of courage. I know it’s scary, but to talk to someone that you trust and that you love, and just that there’s a lot of hope and there’s a lot of good life to be lived.

Fight The New Drug (24:26):
Yeah. Very well said. And something that you’re doing now [00:24:30] is sharing your story and hearing the stories of other women. Can you tell us a little bit about your advocacy now?

Madi (24:36):
Yeah, yeah. So I run a podcast and I guess an Instagram account called Sisters on the Front Lines. And so essentially, it’s obviously women based. I love men too, of course, but essentially it’s just I have conversations with young women and with experts like therapists and professors and everything like [00:25:00] that, just about pornography. And I’ll interview the young women about their experience with pornography and just their journey of recovery. And a lot of them are still struggling with it, which I say all the better. Share your experiences, just I think it’s really important. And I know that if I would’ve found that at 13 and been able to hear that, then that would’ve been really impactful. And so if I’m able to make that impact in another 13 or eight year old or 24 [00:25:30] year old’s life, then awesome.

Fight The New Drug (25:32):
Yeah, I think that’s such a good reminder. We often hear from, I mean women and men who say, well, I really don’t feel like I can be a fighter, which is what we call our followers or activists in this movement until I’m fully recovered. And it’s like, who better to understand the harms of pornography and to speak out against those harms than someone who is experiencing this or has experienced this to any degree. So such a good reminder that you don’t have [00:26:00] to be fully recovered to be able to share a story and speak out about those times.

Madi (26:07):
Totally. And I think those are the most beautiful stories that I get to witness. And they’re like, this is what I’m learning. This is what I still have to learn. But there’s always so much strength and power from exactly where they stand.

Fight The New Drug (26:21):
So looking who you are now versus who you were when you were really in the struggle, can you kind of tell us what the biggest differences you [00:26:30] see are?

Madi (26:32):
I would say one of the biggest differences is just my happiness and probably my ability to just appreciate simplicity of life. And I think when I was struggling with pornography, again with that baseline dopamine, those things just weren’t making the cut. But now being able to just go outside, be still in nature and go on hikes and spend time with [00:27:00] my family and stuff like that, I think I’m a lot more appreciative of those things. And I think that’s with pornography and that’s also with social media. I found when I limit the amount of time that I’m on social media, I do run the social media for sister on front lines, but I was so reluctant to do that. I dunno, I don’t like the influence that social media has on my brain. And so I found that when I spend less time on social media and with pornography, then [00:27:30] I’m able to just enjoy life more.

Fight The New Drug (27:33):
And I think that’s such a good, for anyone who is kind of in the depths of a pornography struggle, that’s such a good reminder of how much you can gain by recovering from a pornography consumption habit. Totally. So that’s great. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else we haven’t talked about that you feel is beneficial to share about your experience or advice you have [00:28:00] for someone who is in a similar situation?

Madi (28:06):
Yeah. I think I touched on this a little bit before, but I just want to emphasize, a lot of times you hear these things maybe on social media or you see these things and you see them and you think, well, I’m the exception to that. And I just want to emphasize a point of you are absolutely not the exception to that. And just that figuring your way out of this pornography struggle is actually a beautiful process, [00:28:30] and being able to learn what sexuality is the right way is awesome. And just that there’s a lot of hope to be had.

Fight The New Drug (28:40):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was such an honor, truly, and a delight to get to talk with you. I’m sure our listeners and followers will gain so much from hearing your story and your experience. And also just a good reminder for anyone who’s struggling or has struggled [00:29:00] that by sharing your own story, you can help others out and help break those barriers of shame and help us change the conversation so that other people can find the joy that you have found now on the other side of this. So thank you so much.

Madi (29:14):
Thank you. I can’t believe I’m here. I’m so happy.

Fight The New Drug (29:18):
We’re thrilled you’re here.

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Outro (30:06):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming. Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug. Fight The New Drug is a non-religious and a non legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects, using only science facts, and personal accounts. [00:30:30] Check out the episode notes for resources mentioned in this episode. If you find this podcast helpful, consider subscribing and leaving a review. Consider Before Consuming is made possible by listeners like you. If you’d like to support consider Before Consuming, you can make a one-time or recurring donation of any amount at ftnd.org/support. That’s F-T-N-D.O-R-G/support. Thanks again for listening. We invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.