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Garrett Jonsson: My name is Garrett Jonsson, and you’re listening to Consider Before Consuming, a podcast by Fight the New Drug.

And in case you’re new here, Fight the New Drug is a non-religious and non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts.

We want these conversations to be educational, uplifting, and hopeful. As we sit down with experts, influencers, activists, and people with personal accounts, we cover a wide variety of topics that may be triggering to some, you can refer to the episode notes for a specific trigger warning- listener discretion is advised.

Today’s episode is unique because we’re sharing our favorite clips from the episodes we’ve published during 2021. The lineup includes award-winning journalists, former performers, and even sex therapists.

With that being said, let’s jump into the conversation, we hope you enjoy this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

35. Nicholas Kristof: Award-winning Journalist, & Political Commentator
Nicholas Kristof: I, I sort of been following the Pornhub, I was aware of it, but I wasn’t didn’t really know what to think of it. And then, um, ask some people then went online and some of the first images that I saw were of, uh, unconscious women who were, uh, being stripped and raped and the rapist to prove that they were unconscious were touching their eyeballs, uh, to show that these women were, um, you know, drugged out, drunk. I don’t know what it was, uh, uh, and, uh, you know, I just, you know, you look at this unconscious women being raped in a company, a major internet company is monetizing that? Uh, and you think about what that does to those women when they find out that this rape, I mean, they’re not only brutalized or half an hour or something where they brutalized for the rest of their lives for all to see.
36. Adam LaRoche: Former MLB Player, & Founder of E3
Adam LaRoche: The place she was being trafficked, she was 14, and the place she was getting, being trafficked out of, she remembers one time and she was in the basement with some other girls and she, she remembers one time going up to the third floor of this house in a, in a decent neighborhood that nobody, you would never suspect that this is going on. And somehow she got up to the third floor, of course they’ve got drugs in all of them. And she remembers seeing another younger girl that she had seen in the, at the basement level, um, in a studio upstairs, the third floor of this house. And it was evident as soon as she walked in and that this is where they filmed porn. So not only are they linked like financially or, I mean, they, these were linked in the same house.

They were trafficking girls out in the basement. Men can come in and taking these same girls. And, uh, however they would choose how to do that would, would take them to the third floor and, and continue to make money off of them.
37. Lynne: Athlete, Activist, & Recovering Porn Addict
Lynne: And so I found that pornography would let me forget and feel something other than that sadness and hopelessness for just a second. And then that depression, anxiety and lack of energy would swing back more intense than before I watched it. Um, it would be, it would kind of sink you deeper cause you felt the guilt and the shame on top of your depression and anxiety.

So, um, I was already battling that stuff, but I think the pornography addiction just made it tenfold kind of like way more than you, um, that I was originally planning on battling. And I remember when I finally was able to open up to people about it, um, and kind of do research on it. I’m like, “Wow, this is a big issue.” Like this is something that is like, like your name is Fight the New Drug. Like this is, uh, like a drug. It is something that needs to be discussed.
38. Eddie Capparucci, Ph.D.: Counselor, Coach, & Sex Addiction Therapist
Eddie Capparucci, Ph.D.: They also struggle with, they have limited interests and passions. And so many of my clients, one of the things they’ll say “I don’t really have friends.” And when you ask them, “Well, what do you do?” And they’ll say, “Well, I got, maybe I ride a bike or I play video game.” And again, they’re not living life to the fullest. And if you’re not living life to the fullest, how are you going to live? How are you going to have a relationship that is rich and robust? And that is to the fullest. You look again at the antidote for all of this, it is true connections. If you can develop that solid emotional bond with people. You know what, you don’t need the rest of this, but the problem is nobody showed most these folk how to do that. They don’t know how to do a relationship. And what I mean by do a relationship. They don’t know how to cultivate it, how to feed it, how to make it come alive to Jeff, walking through it,

39. Kathrine Lee: Anti-trafficking Advocate & Founder of the Pure Hope Foundation

Kathrine Lee: Because that’s what these guys were preying on is a woman and a young girl in particular, not having our sense of her worth and identity. And I challenged him on that. I actually said to him, “Can I challenge you on something?” And I really believed at that moment, I had earned the right to be heard. You know, I listened and I, I, you know, was gathering information and facts and perspective from him. And, um, I believe I earned the right to be heard. Cause he said, “Yes.” You know, when I say, can I challenge you on something? And I said, and “I’m just curious, I hear you’ve justified what you do, but I’m just curious if ever in the middle of the night, like 3:00 AM when you’re not fully into the frontal lobe of your brain.” Right? Which is the part of our brain that justifies and, and the executive function of our brain. I said, “I’m just curious if ever in the middle of the night, like at 3:00 AM, if your hero’s heart ever rises up on behalf of these young women?” And for the first time, Mr. Charisma couldn’t say a word.

40. Dr. Kim Farrington: Activist & Sexual Assault Physician

Dr. Kim Farrington: I have been someone who’s become very passionate about the impact of pornography on what we’re seeing. And it really began probably about eight to 10 years ago. I suppose we, we just kind of started commenting to each other as, particularly in our younger and our teenage patients, you know, as colleagues, we would just start to comment, “Hmm. Is, is what you’re seeing changing.” We’re seeing more anal assault say, um, the types of assaults were changing. And that’s really why I reached out to Fight the New Drug and to Consider Before Consuming, because we were looking to find out, okay, what’s behind this kind of progressive change. And it hasn’t just been the change in the types of assaults. It’s also how the, um, younger females in particular, um, how they respond to it too, or perhaps what they think is okay.

41. Barbi: Anti-Abuse Activist & Child Sexual Abuse Survivor

Barbi: What he did was his choice. It wasn’t my choice. I didn’t choose to see pornography. I didn’t choose for him to touch me. I didn’t, I didn’t choose any of that. Um, so that’s when I knew and, and I forgave him and it took me another, maybe six months after forgiving him to actually, um, …

Garrett Jonsson: Get the courage?

Barbi: Get the courage to, I didn’t know how to tell. I didn’t, I, it just, wasn’t something you talked about, you just didn’t talk about it. And if someone said something, it was like, that was the end of the conversation. There was no, there was no chatter about it after that. It was done. And I didn’t, I didn’t know how, I didn’t know who to tell. I didn’t know how to go to, I didn’t know if they would believe me. I was, it was easier for me. It was just easier for me just to know and no one else to know and “I’ll be okay” and that’s the end. Um, but I didn’t, I just felt like my parents, it was almost became a burden that I couldn’t do on my own anymore.

42. What’s going on with Pornhub?

Keri: So just as a nutshell, Garrett, I mean over the course of these hearings that we’re talking about, uh, with the ethics committee, the scope of the situation was revealed and its true entirety. It was becoming, it’s becoming clear that the world’s largest porn company that claims to care about victims of child sexual abuse, material and nonconsensual content, they reportedly only theory very recently put basic safeguards in place. And these new basic safeguards were put in place, not because of the multitudes of victims of image-based abuse and trafficking and child exploitation. These safeguards were not put in place because they begged for the videos and images of their exploitation to be removed. But reportedly because PornHub wanted to protect their financial successes and preserve their bottom line.

Garrett Jonsson: Yeah.

Keri: That’s what these ethics committee meetings have really revealed, at the heart of it.

Garrett Jonsson: Right.

Keri: And I don’t think that that’s a point that should be missed or skated over it. That’s exactly what was revealed. It wasn’t enough for the exploitation survivors to speak out. It wasn’t enough for advocates to demand change. It had to be about their bottom line.

43. Joshua Broome: Former Porn Performer & Anti-Porn Activist

Joshua Broome: So I did that one film. I signed a contract with that agent, that agent just happened to be, you know, he, he only represented a handful of guys. And, um, it was the biggest agency in the United States. And one, one film turned into, I did, I think 150 that first year. And then every year after that, I did well over 200.

And then, you know, after five years I had w I’d been nominated for best male porn star, and I’ve won it one time and won all these awards and travel all over the world. And I’d done, I’d done a thousand movies and I was all over Showtime and HBO and I, there were sex shops that I had, you know, my pictures were all over toys and movies and covers up things and on billboards in Vegas and all this stuff. And all of a sudden I had somehow become one of the top five male porn stars in the world.

44. Theodosia: Former Performer

Theodosia: I think that I mentioned to you that, uh, because I, I, from a young age, I did not enjoy either being identified by others or experiencing the state of victimhood. Okay. And didn’t like it, I rejected it completely. Um, even if it was accurate, I didn’t like it. I wanted nothing to do with it. Um, and because I also didn’t like any kind of experiences of being powerless in any way. I hated that. I hated having absolutely, no say as a kid over anything I could do, especially again, in like situations of law enforcement. So I, again, so I created and like this mental stratagem, if you will frame a kid from like 14, 15, okay. If like “Consent doesn’t exist, therefore I cannot be violated.”

Garrett Jonsson: Oh, okay.

Theodosia: And so I don’t, so I cannot speak to what other performers were doing or other, you know, just people involved in the industry where they are with this question. And I think if anything, sometimes even the conversation around consent has gotten a little neurotic.

45. Jo Robertson: Sex Therapist & Betrayal Trauma Specialist

Jo Robertson: Um, you know, I think there’s a lot of, uh, what can be parent bashing, which is like, “Why don’t you do this?” And, “Why don’t you even think about this?” and “Why aren’t you taking control?” And, and I just feel a lot of empathy for parents. Um, I’m, I’m one myself and I know how hard these conversations can be and how awkward we can feel about them and wanting to do it right. And that can be quite paralyzing. Um, but we, we really do need to, and I think at some point we have to decide with a, we want to answer our kids’ questions or we’ll leave it up to Google. Because Google will always answer the questions and it will answer it with a video.

And so there’s kind of a two elements to the conversation. There’s the kind of wider sexuality of sex, sex conversation. And then the porn specific one. Um, I generally say to have that conversation with boys around 10 and then girls around 12. Um, and that’s just based on the data because we know that kids are seeing, um, porn much earlier than they were in the past.

46. Garrett Jonsson: Podcast Host & Recovered Compulsive Porn Consumer

Garrett Jonsson: So I think that being open about it could have really helped me. Um, I think that it could have eliminated my shame.

Jasmine: Yeah.

Garrett Jonsson: Um, and I think what it really comes down to is that I could have finally accepted myself for myself because if I’m hiding this thing, I’m not only not allowing her to accept me because I’m lacking the openness, but I’m also not allowing myself. I’m not accepting myself because I’m trying to hide this thing. And so I think having that conversation beforehand and during our relationship ongoing could have been very helpful and very healthy. Because she didn’t know about my porn consumption.

And we went through about five and a half years of marriage without her knowing that I was consuming porn. And I’m like, I’m not proud to say that.

47. Alia: Child Sex Trafficking Survivor, Former Porn Performer, & Advocate

Alia: And growing up, my mom had, she had been a centerfold for one of Larry Flynn’s magazines, um, which was a big print hustler type thing. And she had had like a life size print of one of her centerfold photos hanging above her bed. And so that I also not only was I sexually abused, but I was also raised by somebody that had a really, um, high view of pornography at that point in her life. Things have changed a lot since then. Um, but as like a, a very young mom, that was something that she idealized as well.

So because I was raised in this environment and then coupled with, uh, the sexual abuse, those things, um, they spoke into each other, they were two, they were messages from two different places that were telling me the same thing. Um, both the, the pornographic images that I was seeing with my mother and the way that she carried herself, um, and the way that she spoke. So highly of her experiences, along with my abuser, who was telling me that this is what sexuality is, this is what, um, sexual touch is, what love looks like, um, specifically like forced sexual touch is what love looks like and that these women in these magazines, or, um, in the case of the sexual abuse that I was seeing, these underage, um, girls that I was seeing in photographs and things like that, that this is really where, uh, someone would peak in life that these were good things. These were things that were, um, to be, to be idolized and idealized.

48. Phillip Martin: Award Winning GBH News Investigative Journalist

Phillip Martin: but as you pointed out, Garrett, there is another aspect of this as well, that which is rarely talked about, which is the exploitation of boys. Now we hear about the super exploitation of children. Uh, this grotesque, uh, practiced by some men around the world who basically engage in child pornography, uh, and worse of the rape and abuse of children. Uh, much of this is connected to something that occurs later, which is, uh, essentially buying boys and teenagers, uh, for money or to allow them to survive, uh, something that’s called survival sex. Um, and these things are connected to one another. Uh, so that is essentially what commercial sexual exploitation is. It manifests, uh, in forms of, uh, it manifests as trafficking, sex trafficking.

49. Matthias J. Barker: Licensed Therapist & Public Figure

Matthias J. Barker: Give yourself a little bit of grace here that we don’t have a map for how to navigate this thing yet. This is different than Playboy magazines, right? This is different than like when broadband internet hit in 2010, then the whole domain changed. And so you are pioneering how to figure this out for your kids and their kids and kids in generations onward, you were pioneering how to figure this out for other couples in your community, and for other friends, like give yourself some grace, this is a, this is anything but simple. And so if you’re feeling especially discouraged, because you’ve been trying to figure this out for several years, it might take you a long, long time because there’s no roadmap that even comes close to the kind of access to the kind of variety to the kind of potency that this drug is imposing on our culture and it’s, um, poison.

So be careful and give yourself some grace as you’re navigating it, because, uh, this is part of, um, living in this time.

50. Christian: Founder of 1924us & Recovering Porn Addict

Christian: So I get all that stuff. But the intent of pornography is really where the problem lies. And so in my opinion, the commodification of people should never exist. And we were doing that and people try to, you know, traditionalize it by saying, “Oh, it’s been around for thousands of years.” and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But the truth is, is it’s nothing is as accessible as pornography. Yeah. And if pornography it’s intention is the commodification of humans, whereas like television and video games and all this stuff have those negative effects, whatever sure. It’s more about the user that it, that it, you know, negatively implicates, whereas, uh, with pornography it’s, it’s not just the user, it’s actually the people on the other side as well. And the fact that the product is free. So there’s a lot of different assets coming at it, you know, from different perspectives where you’re like, Oh, this is, this is wrong from that perspective. And from this perspective and from that perspective, and you can kind of see, you know, it’s not just, “Oh, I use porn and I’m addicted and no one else can get addicted and you know, everyone’s consenting online and it’s all good and fun and you know, it’s free.”

It’s actually like, it’s crazy how, how unregulated and how available pornography and how obviously all these new studies are coming out about, um, pornography and its effects, especially on children.

51. Alan Smyth: Executive Director at Saving Innocence & Anti-Trafficking Advocate

Alan: In 2016, all of the decision-makers in LA county got together and sort of set out loud, wait, these kids are victims, not criminals. Um, so therefore when they say that they’re compelled to treat them as such. And so an entire county wide protocol was constructed and created at that time where, uh, when law enforcement, which is normally the point of, um, you know, first point of contact, uh, recovers identifies what appears to be a child victim of sex trafficking. Then they call a service provider and that’s us. And so that’s, we have our rockstar case. Managers are on call 24 7 and show up in the middle of the night and, um, step into that relationship with that child and, you know, take her from there and help her get what she needs, safety, tangible items that she needs. And then we walk with her as long as it takes to help her get her childhood back and back on her feet.

Garrett Jonsson: Wow.

Alan: So that’s, that’s what that protocol is. It’s pretty, it’s pretty awesome.

52. Katelyn Blotsky: Recovering Porn Consumer

Garrett Jonsson: What advice would you have for someone who is there and still struggling?

Katelyn: Yeah, first I think anyone that’s shown needs to know that they’re not alone because that’s what kept me silent for so long. Um, but they also need to know that it’s not impossible, but pornography, I think people have a stigma that if you watch it or you’re struggling with it, that you’re just a gross person or that you’re dirty and that’s not true. Um, it just it’s a heart problem. It doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person. And so I personally feel like they should know that telling someone it’s okay and it’s going to make it a lot more, it’s just going to make her a lot better. Um, the transition, just to tell someone you trust, but also just to take practical steps. Like for me, I had to get rid of my laptop for a while, which was really inconvenient for school. Um, but sometimes you have to take really dramatic steps and I had to keep my phone in the kitchen for a while. Um, but there’s nothing wrong with taking dramatic steps to help you mentally and physically.

Garrett Jonsson: Yeah.

53. Kristi Wells: CEO & Co-Founder of Safe House Project

Kristi Wells: So 66% of trafficked individuals are trafficked by somebody they know and trust, you know, including that 40% of familial tracking and the way that the traffickers hold them captive is not chains or metal links, but it’s trauma bonding. It’s convincing them that they are loved that they are going to be taken care of that this is normal, that this is, you know, what they’re and their bodies are intended to be used for whatever the lie is that they tell them they use trauma bonding tactics to keep the trafficking victim from ever speaking out from ever saying that they need help. And that person feels like they are completely enslaved. And survivors tell us all the time that shame was the thing that held them captive more than anything else.

Garrett Jonsson: Oh, wow.

54. Ashlynn Mitchell: Betrayal Trauma Coach & Advocate

Ashlynn Mitchell: Well, and do we know what betrayal trauma is? A lot of us have never even heard. I’d never heard it when I was the cow and, and really just trying to numb, I really took on everything. So “This must be my fault that my former partner is choosing these things.”, “It must be my fault that I’m angry and acting this way.” And I didn’t understand why I was showing up the way I was, but I, I did choose to be really angry and name call and bring up the past in closed doors.

Garrett Jonsson: Do you think it was a subconscious decision?

Ashlynn Mitchell: Yes, because the crazy thing is we are not taught to act this way and yet how many of us show up this way? Most, all of us. And we all show up in this pain and we will yell and scream and do things that are not us and leave the room and go, “What did I just do? This is not me.” So I feel like that being in that response, I was not choosing to be me and I didn’t even realize it. I just was confused and didn’t know why I was showing up the way I was.

55. Deanna Lynn: Author & Former Porn Performer

Deanna Lynn: Well, so one, uh, pornography continued to be a part of my household. Like, like the movies were constantly in the house. Um, you know, even though like CPS had come and removed him, when my mom was alive a few times, like they, like, we still knew where the stash was. And so that, that right there is telling me, like, this is an acceptable part of culture. Plus I grew up in a time, you know, I was born in the eighties. And so I feel like that might’ve been like a real big boom for the industry, because I remember I’m like triple X rated movie theaters and stuff like that around. Um, my sister was dancing in a club. She was four years older than me. I’m sorry, stripping. I like to call things what they actually are. She was stripping in a club.

Garrett Jonsson: Yeah.

Deanna Lynn: And, um, and so I, you know, I kind of looked at her as like an idea of womanhood and, um, the people in our high school and junior high, like they would call me names. And I was just like, “Man, this must be like the only thing I’m good for.” Um, and without that lack of guidance, so it was like, I felt like I was pushed into, uh, becoming sexualized.

56. Drew Boa: Recovered Compulsive Porn Consumer & Founder of Husband Material

Drew Boa: I remember sitting on Rebecca’s couch. I couldn’t look her in the eyes. My stomach was tight and I can be a slow talker. It took me a long time to get the words out. Eventually I looked up and I said, “I’m not as free from porn, as you might think.”

And in that moment, she gave me such empathy and kindness and tenderness that something changed within me. And I knew that if I’m going to marry this person, if I’m going to commit to her, I need to be 100% confident that porn is in the past. At that time, I had had over a year of freedom in the past, but I had that recent relapse right before we started dating. And I had to tell her about that. And that is when my journey got a lot deeper. That’s when I started researching. That’s when I started training and reading as much as I could. And that’s what took me back to my childhood.

57. Jennifer Nielson: Child Sexual Abuse Survivor & CEO of The Dig

Jennifer: And I had to fight for that. I had to work for that. And just like anything that we work for in our lives, the more we invest in them, where we work, the more power and meaning that it has. And so that’s something now that you can never take for me. And I want to give that to other people, and it’s not just those who’ve had sexual abuse in their, in their lives. And that’s something I really want to speak to is pain is pain. And trauma comes in all shapes and sizes, divorce, death illness, there’s, everyone’s experienced pain. We’re none of us are exempt, but all of us have the same power to choose, to work through that, to have hope and to have possibility and to expand and become the people that we want to be, regardless of what’s happened to us. And so that’s where I just get so excited because I see that in people and even those that come in and feel like they’re not repairable, like I’ve had people say those kinds of things to me and that it just isn’t. So it just, isn’t true. Everyone has the ability to heal, to grow and to become powerful.

58. Paris Berelc: Actress, Model, & Anti-Trafficking Advocate

Paris Berelc: I remember I read something that said, you know, if you, if you watch certain videos, a lot of videos on the internet are rape, no consent. Um, a lot of them involve a minor. And it’s also the way that they name certain videos and the content that’s in it. So if something says “cookie toddler”, or if something says, um, like “stepdad screws, step son”, you know, if you’re constantly watching videos like that, or if it’s like a “teacher and a school girl”, like if you’re constantly watching videos like that, you, those ideas start to kind of fester in your brain. And there’s a reason why traffickers, and pimps, and predators, like they all get ideas from somewhere and porn is one of those things.

Garrett Jonsson: Thanks for joining us on this episode of Consider Before Consuming.

Consider Before Consuming is brought to you by Fight the New Drug.

Fight the New Drug is a non-religious and non-legislative organization that exists to provide individuals the opportunity to make an informed decision regarding pornography by raising awareness on its harmful effects using only science, facts, and personal accounts.

If you’d like to learn more about today’s guest and the conversation we had, you can check out the links included with this episode.

Again, big thanks to you for listening to this conversation. As you go about your day, we invite you to increase your self-awareness, look both ways, check your blind spots, and consider before consuming.

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